Israel v Hamas

[Wisbech Eagle]

By Hamas on the gullible? Yup, that's working

The subject was Israel dropping leaflets etc in Gaza city. Not Hamas.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

You disagreed with Penge's assertion calling it bullshit therefore suggesting that Israel are acting uniquely

I said it was impossible to know whether the assertion made that no other government would act differently was true, but given who that is likely to be, seems highly unlikely.

That’s not a suggestion. It’s a bankable probability. Israel may not be unique but whoever shares their approach deserves just as much condemnation.

Defending the indefensible is never going to win you friends.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

We weren't discussing future changes of government, were we? We were talking about the response to Oct 7.

You asserted that whichever government was in charge when Hamas committed their atrocity would have responded the same way. I don’t believe that can possibly be true. It’s unknowable but very unlikely.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

The US and UK have carried out airstrikes on targets inside cities when fighting ISIS or Al-Qaeda. Occupying and sending in more forces actually increases the death counts. International law puts responsibility on the group using human shields, not just the army responding. Your bias makes you blame Israel and not Hamas.

Why is it OK for other countries to restrict journalists' access and not Israel? I think most people know that Israel is not targeting Christians – unless you have evidence to the contrary?

What an awful statement!

So it’s ok to target non Christians? Even if they are innocent women and children?

But not ok to target Christians, even if they were actively supporting Hamas?

 

[georgenorman]

You asserted that whichever government was in charge when Hamas committed their atrocity would have responded the same way. I don’t believe that can possibly be true. It’s unknowable but very unlikely.

Israel always retaliates robustly when attacked and always will.

 

[ASCPFC]

Israel always retaliates robustly when attacked and always will.

Whilst the UK let the 7/7 leader off with a pat on the back.

 

[Penge Eagle]

What an awful statement!

So it’s ok to target non Christians? Even if they are innocent women and children?

But not ok to target Christians, even if they were actively supporting Hamas?

I think you've missed the point.

 

[silvertop]

The US and UK have carried out airstrikes on targets inside cities when fighting ISIS or Al-Qaeda. Occupying and sending in more forces actually increases the death counts. International law puts responsibility on the group using human shields, not just the army responding. Your bias makes you blame Israel and not Hamas.

Why is it OK for other countries to restrict journalists' access and not Israel? I think most people know that Israel is not targeting Christians – unless you have evidence to the contrary?

You address a point I did not continue presumably to distract from the points I did. And then add the standard non sequiturs of fictional bias and tacit Hamas support - allegations that are obviously bollox but give you comfort as you continue - in the face of all facts - to somehow still side with genocide and ethnic cleansing.

"Targeting" is not what I said and you know it. Israel are intentionally sending highly explosive ordinance into the general area of very densely concentrated populations - a demographic they have caused. They may well have good cause to believe there are Hamas present. But the point is they have no real care who else is there.

I tell you what, this to and fro is getting us nowhere. If you just say that you know Israel are not defending themselves; that they are seeking to push Palestinians out of Gaza to open settlement for Israelis; that you are unconcerned with how many Palestinians (Christian or Muslim) die or suffer in this process; and that you support those policies, then at least we know where you stand.

 

[Penge Eagle]

You asserted that whichever government was in charge when Hamas committed their atrocity would have responded the same way. I don’t believe that can possibly be true. It’s unknowable but very unlikely.

Firstly, Israel is currently operating under a wartime coalition government. Far-right ministers do not sit on the war cabinet.

Secondly, we can look at historical precedent on the stance of different governments. Even left-wing governments maintained strong security policies, continued settlement activity and viewed Hamas and other militant groups as enemies to be neutralised.

 

[silvertop]

Israel always retaliates robustly when attacked and always will.

Oct 7/8 was an atrocity that justified a robust and lethal reprisal.

That objective was proportionately completed by or before the end of that month.

The world that mattered was largely on their side to that point.

Since then it has been opportunism by hard line Israelis - given carte blanche by Trump playing to his evangelical right base - seeking to ethnically cleans Gaza of non Israelis.

This is reality. It is not a view informed by anti Israel bias, antisemitism, pro Hamas or Leftism. Fact: a country with power is bombing an effectively defenseless people to death.

If you have any genuine belief in Western values and acting in a way complicit with what can be described as civilized you would not support this.

As a person who professes to have Christian faith as his base, what part of the reality do you have to ignore to continue to support this?

 

[georgenorman]

Oct 7/8 was an atrocity that justified a robust and lethal reprisal.

That objective was proportionately completed by or before the end of that month.

The world that mattered was largely on their side to that point.

Since then it has been opportunism by hard line Israelis - given carte blanche by Trump playing to his evangelical right base - seeking to ethnically cleans Gaza of non Israelis.

This is reality. It is not a view informed by anti Israel bias, antisemitism, pro Hamas or Leftism. Fact: a country with power is bombing an effectively defenseless people to death.

If you have any genuine belief in Western values and acting in a way complicit with what can be described as civilized you would not support this.

As a person who professes to have Christian faith as his base, what part of the reality do you have to ignore to continue to support this?

Where have I ever said that I have Christian faith?
Israel probably is trying to once and for all remove the threat from Hamas, Hezbollah and other enemies. Those people are pledged to kill all Jews and many of them would like to establish a world-wide Caliphate. So, do I worry about their destruction? Not really.

 

[silvertop]

Firstly, Israel is currently operating under a wartime coalition government. Far-right ministers do not sit on the war cabinet.

Secondly, we can look at historical precedent on the stance of different governments. Even left-wing governments maintained strong security policies, continued settlement activity and viewed Hamas and other militant groups as enemies to be neutralised.

A relative term when it comes to Israel.

They are a new country that supplanted another population who consequently hate them and surround them.

We behaved badly in Northern Ireland; but their task is far greater, more intractable and, inevitably, Israeli governments of all shades will have behaved appallingly over the years. Far from the Island of civilized Western democracy they want us to believe.

They were allowed to carry on with that conduct with impunity. Partly because many Americans genuinely believe this was their God given right; partly because the West valued their presence and continued existence in that heathen region; and partly because there was little that could be done about it save the odd hypocritical tut.

The difference this time is one of scale and motivation.

 

[Penge Eagle]

You address a point I did not continue presumably to distract from the points I did. And then add the standard non sequiturs of fictional bias and tacit Hamas support - allegations that are obviously bollox but give you comfort as you continue - in the face of all facts - to somehow still side with genocide and ethnic cleansing.

"Targeting" is not what I said and you know it. Israel are intentionally sending highly explosive ordinance into the general area of very densely concentrated populations - a demographic they have caused. They may well have good cause to believe there are Hamas present. But the point is they have no real care who else is there.

I tell you what, this to and fro is getting us nowhere. If you just say that you know Israel are not defending themselves; that they are seeking to push Palestinians out of Gaza to open settlement for Israelis; that you are unconcerned with how many Palestinians (Christian or Muslim) die or suffer in this process; and that you support those policies, then at least we know where you stand.

"Genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" is not a settled fact!

I find it strange that you think it's mostly or only Israel's fault for the killing of civilians. I solely blame Hamas for embedding with civilians, but you don't. That looks like support to me, just going along with their propaganda.

If terrorists are actively using a civilian building (like a house, hospital, or school) to launch attacks or store weapons, that building becomes a legitimate military target under international law.

Did you know that people sadly die in war? Maybe don't start them in the first place?!

There is no evidence that Israel is seeking to push Palestinians out of Gaza. More hyperbole.

 

[silvertop]

Where have I ever said that I have Christian faith?
Israel probably is trying to once and for all remove the threat from Hamas, Hezbollah and other enemies. Those people are pledged to kill all Jews and many of them would like to establish a world-wide Caliphate. So, do I worry about their destruction? Not really.

You told me you were old school C of E and were a believer. Were you not telling the truth?

Israel have killed north of twice the number of people killed by the Luftwaffe in the Blitz. Of those, the majority have no desire to establish a world wide Caliphate, are not pledged to kill all Jews and just want to get on with their lives. That number includes thousands of Christians and innumerable children too young to hold such views. Given your rationale, do you worry about them?

And have you considered what chance chance Palestinians have of establishing a world wide Caliphate. Absolutely none. It is a fantasy for a radical few.

These are not good grounds for supporting genocide.

 

[Penge Eagle]

A relative term when it comes to Israel.

They are a new country that supplanted another population who consequently hate them and surround them.

We behaved badly in Northern Ireland; but their task is far greater, more intractable and, inevitably, Israeli governments of all shades will have behaved appallingly over the years. Far from the Island of civilized Western democracy they want us to believe.

They were allowed to carry on with that conduct with impunity. Partly because many Americans genuinely believe this was their God given right; partly because the West valued their presence and continued existence in that heathen region; and partly because there was little that could be done about it save the odd hypocritical tut.

The difference this time is one of scale and motivation.

Supplanted? Jews are indigenous to the land.

You call Israel "far from a civilized Western democracy," yet you ignore the obvious: it is the only functioning liberal democracy in the Middle East.

Every government with war and terrorism on its border makes mistakes, so to think Israel is any different shows your bias. They are not at war with Denmark or Finland, they have the challenge of fighting groups that have openly stated they want it wiped off the map.

I'm not sure what the US has to do with Israel's right to exist? It appears to show your anti-West (UK, US, Israel) stance.

 

[Penge Eagle]

You told me you were old school C of E and were a believer. Were you not telling the truth?

Israel have killed north of twice the number of people killed by the Luftwaffe in the Blitz. Of those, the majority have no desire to establish a world wide Caliphate, are not pledged to kill all Jews and just want to get on with their lives. That number includes thousands of Christians and innumerable children too young to hold such views. Given your rationale, do you worry about them?

And have you considered what chance chance Palestinians have of establishing a world wide Caliphate. Absolutely none. It is a fantasy for a radical few.

These are not good grounds for supporting genocide.

You make a dishonest comparison. In WW2 London was bombed indiscriminately while in Gaza, Hamas deliberately embeds itself among civilians and fires rockets from schools, hospitals etc.

There is zero evidence of Israel having an official policy to annihilate Palestinians.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Oct 7/8 was an atrocity that justified a robust and lethal reprisal.

That objective was proportionately completed by or before the end of that month.

The world that mattered was largely on their side to that point.

Since then it has been opportunism by hard line Israelis - given carte blanche by Trump playing to his evangelical right base - seeking to ethnically cleans Gaza of non Israelis.

This is reality. It is not a view informed by anti Israel bias, antisemitism, pro Hamas or Leftism. Fact: a country with power is bombing an effectively defenseless people to death.

If you have any genuine belief in Western values and acting in a way complicit with what can be described as civilized you would not support this.

As a person who professes to have Christian faith as his base, what part of the reality do you have to ignore to continue to support this?

More hyperbole and lack of evidence.

As stated, there are no far right politicians in the wartime coalition.

There is no evidence of ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Israel has stated many times it has no interest in that land.

Though Trump is generally supportive of Israel, there are examples where Israel has defied him.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

More hyperbole and lack of evidence.

As stated, there are no far right politicians in the wartime coalition.

There is no evidence of ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Israel has stated many times it has no interest in that land.

Though Trump is generally supportive of Israel, there are examples where Israel has defied him.

What would you accept as evidence of ethnic cleansing in Gaza?

 

[Glazier#1]

Supplanted? Jews are indigenous to the land.

You call Israel "far from a civilized Western democracy," yet you ignore the obvious: it is the only functioning liberal democracy in the Middle East.

Every government with war and terrorism on its border makes mistakes, so to think Israel is any different shows your bias. They are not at war with Denmark or Finland, they have the challenge of fighting groups that have openly stated they want it wiped off the map.

I'm not sure what the US has to do with Israel's right to exist? It appears to show your anti-West (UK, US, Israel) stance.

I suggest that real politik has the USA wanting Israel's right to exist and act as their agent in the levant?

No?

Just as Iran wants Hamas as their agents.

No?

 

[silvertop]

"Genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" is not a settled fact!

I find it strange that you think it's mostly or only Israel's fault for the killing of civilians. I solely blame Hamas for embedding with civilians, but you don't. That looks like support to me, just going along with their propaganda.

If terrorists are actively using a civilian building (like a house, hospital, or school) to launch attacks or store weapons, that building becomes a legitimate military target under international law.

Did you know that people sadly die in war? Maybe don't start them in the first place?!

There is no evidence that Israel is seeking to push Palestinians out of Gaza. More hyperbole.

The evidence is in the words of senior Israeli politicians but I guess we will see with time if they carry it out. Right now, neither of us know.

You also subscribe to the view that those who do not support Israel must, by definition, support Hamas. As I said to Cryst: too binary. So I will repeat my position just so you know what page I am on.

Those responsible for Oct 7 - before during and after the fact - appalling excuses for humanity all.

My fantasy - arrest, charge and - if convicted though due process - punish to the full extent of Israeli law.

My reality - kill every last mother-fvcking one of them. Not a wink of sleep would I lose after what they did. I will even accept, given the very difficult logistics - a degree of collateral casualty.

But they number HUNDREDS.

Israel have killed TENS OF HOUSANDS. And are continuing to do so.

Mission creep. First revenge/defence. Then ethnic cleansing and land grab.

It is for those who did nothing wrong that I argue. The question is: why do you not?

Simply saying Hamas started it does not stop the fact that they have not being doing it. For years. If I painfully flick you in the eye, are you justified in bludgeoning me to death; and then killing my wife, kids, extended family; and the bloke who does my dry cleaning?

And your understanding of international law is correct if you can prove that e.g. an active hospital was used for military purposes e.g. firing rockets from it. Not just hiding there. That is not sufficient to lose the hospital's protected status.

As above, I don't know for sure as the facts are hidden. Neither do you. But the truth can't be hidden forever.