War in Ukraine

[Stirlingsays]

They literally had a civil war, but hey, 'just talk to a Ukrainian'.

Guy just posts on here without knowing anything about the topic.

 

[DanH]

They literally had a civil war, but hey, 'just talk to a Ukrainian'.

Guy just posts on here without knowing anything about the topic.

Never spoken to a Ukrainian then?

Guy posts like a geopolitical expert yet never leaves his house.

 

[Spindle]

The only thing Starmer is doing is making us an easy target.....a test bed to warn our bigger cousins over the pond.

I won't blame Starmer for the state of the military though as that was the responsibility of others.

In that case let's disarm so we aren't a target at all, according to that logic

 

[Spindle]

This war would never have happened if the neo cons had kept out of Ukraine.

One of the most avoidable, warned about and most sign posted wars in history.

But the dullards/dishonest only focus on 2022.

What's worst is that the Ukrainian people at no point ever voted for any of this. Only around 7 percent had voted for the strongly anti Russian nationalists.

Zelensky himself won portraying himself as the peace candidate but once elected tacked himself to US state department policy instead of neutrality.

They are a socially conservative people but already have been forced by the US to change laws and embrace progressive values......None of that is by choice but by dictate.

Don't agree. Putin would've gone in anyway and just saved his army for the other territories. It's obvious he considers the soviet bloc as legitimate.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Don't agree. Putin would've gone in anyway and just saved his army for the other territories. It's obvious he considers the soviet bloc as legitimate.

Really? Have you thought about it much though?

What do you base that on exactly?

Factors against this idea that Putin has this grand plan of recreating the Soviet Union are many fold. To do that would require a build up of there military over many years. The reality is that the size of the Russia military, was vastly smaller for the task of invading Ukraine and wasn't invested into until after 2014 for this purpose.....even by 2022, it was no where near big enough, with Russia only realising it had a long war once the 2022 negotiation failed.

How is that the actions of someone planning to retake the Soviet Union's empire?

Secondly he has criticised the soviet bloc many times and was one of the reformers back in the 90s.

Thirdly, most of those Soviet bloc countries are in Nato, so that would require a world war....that would require agreement from the global south coalition and they are hardly interested.....I don't know if you haven't noticed but Russia have already been in war for three years now. It's very expensive. Russian spending for this war is covered until 2026. They would have to extend that.

To hold Ukraine and the soviet bloc Russia would have to go back to a security state and divert a lot of its young men away from industries to the military permanently....that has many internal economic consequences....and to what purpose exactly? They would be fighting insurgences in every country.

It isn't a communist/capitalist fight anymore and Russia couldn't afford to run these countries, it was part of the reason that the Soviet Union fell in the first place....the economy couldn't keep up and Putin's interested in resource rich parts of Ukraine. He also doesn't have the manpower to hold a Soviet bloc with birth rate demographics. Unlike some Putin isn't stupid.

The Russian motivation over Ukraine was made clear many times before 2014. Interference in Ukraine was a known red line that was stated many times....Oliver Stone even made a film about it.....This all seems conveniently memory holed. Instead the neo cons invested billions in overthrowing that government and the rest is history.

We had no business in Ukraine, whereas Russia do have an interest as it's their border country, just as we would be highly interested if our border country had its government overthrown.....but it was done anyway....Ukraine's an extremely resource rich country with lots of money to be made....funny that.

 

[Stirlingsays]

In that case let's disarm so we aren't a target at all, according to that logic

Explain to me the point of opening six factories aimed at countering Russia when you don't have the air cover to protect them from Russia's missiles?

Of course it's a target.

 

[DanH]

Ukraine hit Russian military targets and no civilians = posts on here with how bad it is.

Russian targets residential buildings and civilians = silence.

Ukraine war live updates: At least three killed as Russia launches major drone strike on Kharkiv

 

[Stirlingsays]

Ukraine hit Russian military targets and no civilians = posts on here with how bad it is.

Russian targets residential buildings and civilians = silence.

Ukraine war live updates: At least three killed as Russia launches major drone strike on Kharkiv

There were civilian deaths in the bridge explosions used by special ops as they left back to Ukraine....interesting, if unsurprising, that you didn't know that.

There are attacks pretty much every day by both sides that cause civilian deaths and they aren't commented upon because if people are interested in that they can go to paid outlets which track it....some being more biased than others.

How do you know Russia targeted those buildings and how do you know that it wasn't an anti missile misfire? Both sides have been known to lie about this stuff and have even admitted that it's an 'information war'. It's why I mainly rely upon battlefield movements because, who holds what ground can't be lied about....Well, not for long anyway.

What you will find on the thread is a focus upon major events in the war or argumentation upon how it started or where's it's going.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

There were civilian deaths in the bridge explosions used by special ops as they left back to Ukraine....interesting, if unsurprising, that you didn't know that.

There are attacks pretty much every day by both sides that cause civilian deaths and they aren't commented upon because if people are interested in that they can go to paid outlets which track it....some being more biased than others.

How do you know Russia targeted those buildings and how do you know that it wasn't an anti missile misfire? Both sides have been known to lie about this stuff and have even admitted that it's an 'information war'. It's why I mainly rely upon battlefield movements because, who holds what ground can't be lied about....Well, not for long anyway.

What you will find on the thread is a focus upon major events in the war or argumentation upon how it started or where's it's going.

This is yet more garbage.

Russia invaded Ukraine, who are defending themselves. All the deliberate attacks on civilian areas are in Ukraine, not Russia. Ukrainian attacks in Russia are far less frequent, don’t involve missiles and target military facilities used to attack them. They are clearly defensive, even if they might cause some collateral civilian casualties. The bridge they attacked is in Ukraine.

Even if it was anti missile fire that destroyed the buildings the cause of the destruction was the missiles. You don’t fire at missiles unless they are aimed at you.

 

[cryrst]

This is yet more garbage.

Russia invaded Ukraine, who are defending themselves. All the deliberate attacks on civilian areas are in Ukraine, not Russia. Ukrainian attacks in Russia are far less frequent, don’t involve missiles and target military facilities used to attack them. They are clearly defensive, even if they might cause some collateral civilian casualties. The bridge they attacked is in Ukraine.

Even if it was anti missile fire that destroyed the buildings the cause of the destruction was the missiles. You don’t fire at missiles unless they are aimed at you.

A bit like Gaza really then. Hamas being targeted where they hang out, civilian casualties being collateral all ok in war.
Knew you would come round eventually 👌

 

[Stirlingsays]

This is yet more garbage.

Russia invaded Ukraine, who are defending themselves. All the deliberate attacks on civilian areas are in Ukraine, not Russia. Ukrainian attacks in Russia are far less frequent, don’t involve missiles and target military facilities used to attack them. They are clearly defensive, even if they might cause some collateral civilian casualties. The bridge they attacked is in Ukraine.

Even if it was anti missile fire that destroyed the buildings the cause of the destruction was the missiles. You don’t fire at missiles unless they are aimed at you.

The garbage is all yours.

As with most things...and as with most of your predictions - with this war being a case in point.

If people had based predictions on most things you say they would all be in the poor house.

This 'goodies and baddies' narrative is childish and extremely selective.

You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

A bit like Gaza really then. Hamas being targeted where they hang out, civilian casualties being collateral all ok in war.
Knew you would come round eventually 👌

Ukraine did not provoke Russia by crossing their border, killing innocent civilians and taking hostages. It was Russia who crossed the border.

The only similarities is that many of the civilian casualties appear to be anything other than collateral by the deliberate use of random terror tactics.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

The garbage is all yours.

This 'goodies and baddies' narrative is childish and extremely selective.

As with most things...and as with most of your predictions - with this war being a case in point.

If people had based predictions on most things you say they would all be in the poor house.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Even you admit that it was Russia who started this war. You want to blame the west for expansionism. I don’t and nor do most commentators. What no one does, other than the supremely ignorant, is blame Ukraine.

I have no opinion on whether everyone in Ukraine is a “goodie” because I don’t know but it seems unlikely. It’s obvious though that as a country they are entirely the innocent party. The only childish comments here are from those who persist in trying to deny the obvious. Supporting a bully is not an adult response.

What predictions do you think I have made? I might have suggested some possible outcomes from time to time at various stages but any predictions by anyone, when they have no idea what events lie ahead are spurious. Especially with the current US President threatening to withdraw support.

I’ll ignore the latest batch of ad hominems.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Even you admit that it was Russia who started this war. You want to blame the west for expansionism. I don’t and nor do most commentators. What no one does, other than the supremely ignorant, is blame Ukraine.

I have no opinion on whether everyone in Ukraine is a “goodie” because I don’t know but it seems unlikely. It’s obvious though that as a country they are entirely the innocent party. The only childish comments here are from those who persist in trying to deny the obvious. Supporting a bully is not an adult response.

What predictions do you think I have made? I might have suggested some possible outcomes from time to time at various stages but any predictions by anyone, when they have no idea what events lie ahead are spurious. Especially with the current US President threatening to withdraw support.

I’ll ignore the latest batch of ad hominems.

Much of this is asking me to go over ground we have visited previously.....your stance having been disastrous for Ukraine (lost another 60 square killometres today).

The decision to expand Nato eastwards had strong diplomatic opponents working within the administrations in both the Clinton and Bush eras. Ultimately these presidents listened to the neo cons voices, but it's important to note that this decision and direction was contested and is criticised to this day. In my opinion at the very least it was gone about in the wrong way and Russia (Yeltsin) warned about the consequences at the time.

Ukraine was the red line for Russia for reasons that tire me having to repeat, so I won't.

You talk about having no opinion of 'goodies' and then in the very same paragraph you refer to bullies.....So straight back to the surreal language that thinks in the realm of the playground.....Completely ignoring the history of the conflict and why it happened.....No, it's just bullies and victims apparently.

You can't remember your own stuff, how convenient, you didn't support the 2022 peace agreement that would have ended this war on vastly better terms for Ukraine and instead supported Johnson/Biden's position of continuing a war with Russia.

That position alone has caused possibly over a million deaths on the battlefield which could have been avoided.....All while being denied a vote on it themselves.

All the way through you've been the backer of whatever the establishment says...like you've always done. Indeed, if our country gets attacked it'll be because the likes of yourself and our government engaged fully in a war where we don't actually have the right hardware to defend ourselves.

Instead of de-escalation it's been the exact opposite.....risking WW3 because 'bullies'.....When 'bullies' are all over the world and it never bothers you to write about it.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Much of this is asking me to go over ground we have visited previously.....your stance having been disastrous for Ukraine (lost another 60 square killometres today).

The decision to expand Nato eastwards had strong diplomatic opponents working within the administrations in both the Clinton and Bush eras. Ultimately these presidents listened to the neo cons voices, but it's important to note that this decision and direction was contested and is criticised to this day. In my opinion at the very least it was gone about in the wrong way and Russia (Yeltsin) warned about the consequences at the time.

Ukraine was the red line for Russia for reasons that tire me having to repeat, so I won't.

You talk about having no opinion of 'goodies' and then in the very same paragraph you refer to bullies.....So straight back to the surreal language that thinks in the realm of the playground.....Completely ignoring the history of the conflict and why it happened.....No, it's just bullies and victims apparently.

You can't remember your own stuff, how convenient, you didn't support the 2022 peace agreement that would have ended this war on vastly better terms for Ukraine and instead supported Johnson/Biden's position of continuing a war with Russia.

That position alone has caused possibly over a million deaths on the battlefield which could have been avoided.....All while being denied a vote on it themselves.

All the way through you've been the backer of whatever the establishment says...like you've always done. Indeed, if our country gets attacked it'll be because the likes of yourself and our government engaged fully in a war where we don't actually have the right hardware to defend ourselves.

Instead of de-escalation it's been the exact opposite.....risking WW3 because 'bullies'.....When 'bullies' are all over the world and it never bothers you to write about it.

Lengthy repetitions of your theories don’t turn them into facts.

Russia can draw whatever red line it liked but the fact is that Ukraine did not invade them nor had the slightest intention of doing so.

All they ever wanted was to determine their own destiny and all the west wanted was to support them. Do you seriously think that NATO, a defence pact, posed a threat to Russia?

Russia had no need to invade, other than trying to obtain the resources that Ukraine possesses. You might not like them being described as bullies, but that is exactly how Putin has approached this.

I didn’t think the discussions back in 2022 ever reached an “agreement”! If they had agreed the war would have stopped. They talked, Russia demanded, Ukraine refused and it broke down. It got somewhere but ultimately failed. Trusting Putin to keep his word without security guarantees is not something I would do. There was nothing to support. Nothing existed.

 

[Stirlingsays]

There's no point discussing stuff with this guy.....never really was.

He ignores all the points and just repeats debunked talking points because it's all he has.

You read his crap and then you look at what the results of his opinions are in real life.

Higher energy costs, world instability, higher military spending (but mostly for Ukraine). The complete destruction of Ukraine itself....mass population flight, mass and hidden death tolls of its military (a far proportion press ganged off the street).

How many of our special forces and other directed military have we lost over there? I would be amazed if that isn't being hidden.

As I stated years ago foreign interventionist crap that only has costs and has zero gain.

There's yet a war they didn't like.....All wars involve risk, but this one was never likely to go well....aside from risking WW3 and putting us in a cold war.

I learnt my lesson from being a neo con and just automatically believing what I was being told and that evolution from being a neo con was on Hol's very pages...We were lied to over Iraq and we wasted lives and treasure and no one....I mean no one was held to account for that: It'll be the same here.

All it took to learn my lesson was comparing the rhetoric I was being told with what was actually happening on the ground.