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War in Ukraine

The only thing Starmer is doing is making us an easy target.....a test bed to warn our bigger cousins over the pond.
I actually doubt the UK should be the first to worry. I presume the Baltic states and Scandinavian countries would be easier targets. Plus, have more strategic value for Russia's aims. Which will be resources and strategic defence. The UK has its usual anomaly of needing to cross water and deal with the RAF - which is still not really feasible for current Russian forces. But firing missiles off cannot be ruled out. I doubt nuclear but who knows.
 
I actually doubt the UK should be the first to worry. I presume the Baltic states and Scandinavian countries would be easier targets. Plus, have more strategic value for Russia's aims. Which will be resources and strategic defence. The UK has its usual anomaly of needing to cross water and deal with the RAF - which is still not really feasible for current Russian forces. But firing missiles off cannot be ruled out. I doubt nuclear but who knows.

The Russians sometimes refer to America as the 'Anglos', because they recognise that the fundamental nature of the majority of its founding was north western Europe. That is what makes us stick out as an easier warning target.

Aside from missile sites in Poland I'm not sure why they would attack the Baltic. Unless they were going to invade them (which was always a fantasy for several reasons). I could see their argument for Moldova perhaps but it's still unlikely.

The nature of attacks on us from Russia would be....at worse missile based and at least a damaging of our infrastructure rather than a pointless aircraft attack. The types of missiles they have we have no defence for.

My point is that the bellicose language from our politicians since 2022 has no benefit for us as a nation. There is zero national interest in the Ukraine war. I'm not against war if there is some national interest being served...but anyone with brains just struggles to take their reasons seriously. We tagged along to Biden and the liberal consensus is totally obsessed with Russia to a phobia status and is utterly determined in fighting this war regardless of negatives.....I think its ideological and sunken cost at this point.

Those with brains observed years ago that Ukraine couldn't win and all this escalation instead of peace would achieve was an increase in the cost of living and an increase in threat both to ourselves and globally. I think all of us who criticised the participation in the war and the increasingly zealot like nature of the pro war crowd have been proven correct in that.

What we needed was de-escalation but all we got was escalation because ultimately where we are today is what they want. They are happy to go to the last Ukrainian if they think it hurts Russia.....Which is nuts, it's creating an enemy sure, but you never needed to do that in the first place.

But because these clowns brought us here they would move heaven and earth to save face, so the justifications, lies and half truths continue. It essentially feeds into the 'low quality elites' narrative that I've observed for many years...Well, the elites and their 'go along to get along' crowd.

That have achieved nothing but cost and risk increase.....and Ukraine itself isn't only destroyed, when these leaders could have ended the war three years ago....it is now an economic ball and chain for some and a money earner for others.
 
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The Russians sometimes refer to America as the 'Anglos', because they recognise that the fundamental nature of the majority of its founding was north western Europe. That is what makes us stick out as an easier warning target.

Aside from missile sites in Poland I'm not sure why they would attack the Baltic. Unless they were going to invade them (which was always a fantasy for several reasons). I could see their argument for Moldova perhaps but it's still unlikely.

The nature of attacks on us from Russia would be....at worse missile based and at least a damaging of our infrastructure rather than a pointless aircraft attack. The types of missiles they have we have no defence for.

My point is that the bellicose language from our politicians since 2022 has no benefit for us as a nation. There is zero national interest in the Ukraine war. I'm not against war if there is some national interest being served...but anyone with brains just struggles to take their reasons seriously. We tagged along to Biden and the liberal consensus is totally obsessed with Russia to a phobia status and is utterly determined in fighting this war regardless of negatives.....I think its ideological and sunken cost at this point.

Those with brains observed years ago that Ukraine couldn't win and all this escalation instead of peace would achieve was an increase in the cost of living and an increase in threat both to ourselves and globally. I think all of us who criticised the participation in the war and the increasingly zealot like nature of the pro war crowd have been proven correct in that.

What we needed was de-escalation but all we got was escalation because ultimately where we are today is what they want. They are happy to go to the last Ukrainian if they think it hurts Russia.....Which is nuts, it's creating an enemy sure, but you never needed to do that in the first place.

But because these clowns brought us here they would move heaven and earth to save face, so the justifications, lies and half truths continue. It essentially feeds into the 'low quality elites' narrative that I've observed for many years...Well, the elites and their 'go along to get along' crowd.

That have achieved nothing but cost and risk increase.....and Ukraine itself isn't only destroyed, when these leaders could have ended the war three years ago....it is now an economic ball and chain for some and a money earner for others.
In fairness, an oil and resources war marked by assassinations and diplomatic feuding, along with the odd murder, has characterised UK/ Russia relations for long before Ukraine's trouble. Even one of Di's oil explorer boyfriends had an unfortunate accident in Russia. The UK, in my opinion, was always likely to side with people against Russia - usually just not as openly as this.
Another side of this is, I can't blame Ukraine for bombing Russia whilst the same happens to them.
However, I'm largely with your argument but for different reasons. I don't believe the British military is big enough to sabre rattle too much. Massively expanded, I would have no problem with us telling Russia to do one, frankly. But do it from a position of strength - not in our current state. Same goes for a lot of Europe really. Ireland makes me laugh the most. Shut up if you can back nothing up. Nobody cares what Ireland says. But they love to pretend to be important.You'll have seen it with any Irish bosses in general.
 
In fairness, an oil and resources war marked by assassinations and diplomatic feuding, along with the odd murder, has characterised UK/ Russia relations for long before Ukraine's trouble. Even one of Di's oil explorer boyfriends had an unfortunate accident in Russia. The UK, in my opinion, was always likely to side with people against Russia - usually just not as openly as this.
Another side of this is, I can't blame Ukraine for bombing Russia whilst the same happens to them.
However, I'm largely with your argument but for different reasons. I don't believe the British military is big enough to sabre rattle too much. Massively expanded, I would have no problem with us telling Russia to do one, frankly. But do it from a position of strength - not in our current state. Same goes for a lot of Europe really. Ireland makes me laugh the most. Shut up if you can back nothing up. Nobody cares what Ireland says. But they love to pretend to be important.You'll have seen it with any Irish bosses in general.
It's not just Ireland there are plenty of bigger European countries who talk the talk but don't back it up.

Personally I am now of the opinion that the UK should stop interfering in other peoples problems. Our politicians love to do this (Harold Wilson aside) as they get to pull up a chair along side the big boys. I would rather spend the defence budget on our own people.
 
It's not just Ireland there are plenty of bigger European countries who talk the talk but don't back it up.

Personally I am now of the opinion that the UK should stop interfering in other peoples problems. Our politicians love to do this (Harold Wilson aside) as they get to pull up a chair along side the big boys. I would rather spend the defence budget on our own people.
True, but have a massive armed forces and then it's fine - in my opinion. But currently they'd just be overstretched and overrun. I also don't necessarily see recruitment improving but that could well be a different set of points.
 
After seeing a summary of Ukraine's peace proposals we get to see Russia's.

The Russian state-media network, TASS has released what is claimed to be Russia’s “peace proposal” which was presented today to the Ukrainian delegation in Istanbul. Some of the conditions of the proposal include:

- Full withdrawal of Ukrainian forces from Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia within 30 days of a ceasefire
- International recognition of Crimea, Donbas, and "Novorossiya" as part of Russia
- Ukraine’s neutrality
- Elections in Ukraine followed by a peace treaty
- Ban on redeployment of Ukrainian troops except for withdrawal
- Prohibition of nuclear weapons on Ukrainian territory
- Ban on Western arms and intelligence support

To say that the two sides are far apart is an understatement. This war is a long way from concluding as both sides seem unwilling to budge.

I thought that this war would end this year, possibly even by late summer, but perhaps I'm wrong and that we have a long way to go.
 
After seeing a summary of Ukraine's peace proposals we get to see Russia's.

The Russian state-media network, TASS has released what is claimed to be Russia’s “peace proposal” which was presented today to the Ukrainian delegation in Istanbul. Some of the conditions of the proposal include:

- Full withdrawal of Ukrainian forces from Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia within 30 days of a ceasefire
- International recognition of Crimea, Donbas, and "Novorossiya" as part of Russia
- Ukraine’s neutrality
- Elections in Ukraine followed by a peace treaty
- Ban on redeployment of Ukrainian troops except for withdrawal
- Prohibition of nuclear weapons on Ukrainian territory
- Ban on Western arms and intelligence support

To say that the two sides are far apart is an understatement. This war is a long way from concluding as both sides seem unwilling to budge.

I thought that this war would end this year, possibly even by late summer, but perhaps I'm wrong and that we have a long way to go.

So Ukraine’s demands were ‘insane’ and no comment on these being absolutely bonkers? Imagine my shock, Team Russki.
 
I would call a demand for reparations insane yes, particularly by the side that's losing the war.

For Russia's part I would call a demand for neutrality and recognition of seized territories as unrealistic. That's essentially a demand made on a beaten foe.

It's noted that Ukraine's negotiators attended the meeting wearing military fatigues . The meeting was essentially concentrated upon prisoner exchange and issuing unrealistic demands.

What is clear is that both side's path is set and that the 'till the last Ukrainian' meme is true....something the Ukrainian people were never allowed a vote on.

That's European 'liberals' for you. Never a European war they didn't like.
 
I would call a demand for reparations insane yes, particularly by the side that's losing the war.

For Russia's part I would call a demand for neutrality and recognition of seized territories as unrealistic. That's essentially a demand made on a beaten foe.

It's noted that Ukraine's negotiators attended the meeting wearing military fatigues . The meeting was essentially concentrated upon prisoner exchange and issuing unrealistic demands.

What is clear is that both side's path is set and that the 'till the last Ukrainian' meme is true....something the Ukrainian people were never allowed a vote on.

That's European 'liberals' for you. Never a European war they didn't like.

Again, you call one side's demands 'insane', and the other side's equally bonkers ones as 'unrealistic'.

It's not hard to see why people might suggest you favour one side over the other.
 
I'll repeat this for anyone who hasn't followed this thread (which started back three years ago, so really on the previous site).

I started the war in favour of Ukraine's position. If people were bored enough they could go and read the start of that thread. I've always stated that the 2022 Russia invasion was wrong.....which I still think it was.

My position on the war only altered once I fully looked into the positions of both sides. From that I've taken the view that Russia were provoked into that invasion (while I don't support it) and their reasons for security were valid and quite frankly quite deliberately ignored over the course of thirty to twenty years depending upon how you interpret it.

People who try to portray the war as black and white as if it's just goodies and baddies aren't only dumb or ignorant, they are in many cases deliberately uninterested in the truth of the situation.

That's not me, I will look at a situation and try to be honest.

I've been arguing for a peace settlement for years, the settlements I've argued for Ukraine would bite an arm off for now. Those who supported the continuance of the war have turned out to be....how shall we understate this: incredibly unwise.

But I've come to the conclusion that for most of them they aren't actually that interested in what happens to Ukraine, they are just consumed with hate for anything they regard as oppositional to their politics. Just as long as it isn't them personally having to do any of the fighting.

Ukraine is just a tool for them.
 
After seeing a summary of Ukraine's peace proposals we get to see Russia's.

The Russian state-media network, TASS has released what is claimed to be Russia’s “peace proposal” which was presented today to the Ukrainian delegation in Istanbul. Some of the conditions of the proposal include:

- Full withdrawal of Ukrainian forces from Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia within 30 days of a ceasefire
- International recognition of Crimea, Donbas, and "Novorossiya" as part of Russia
- Ukraine’s neutrality
- Elections in Ukraine followed by a peace treaty
- Ban on redeployment of Ukrainian troops except for withdrawal
- Prohibition of nuclear weapons on Ukrainian territory
- Ban on Western arms and intelligence support

To say that the two sides are far apart is an understatement. This war is a long way from concluding as both sides seem unwilling to budge.

I thought that this war would end this year, possibly even by late summer, but perhaps I'm wrong and that we have a long way to go.
Regrettably it seems that way.

I am no expert but it seems to me that it doesn’t depend on either of the two participants. Russia will continue unless it’s forced to stop. Ukraine will continue unless it is overrun. Only the USA can alter that. What they do depends on Trump, or more accurately on what he is manipulated into doing by those who control him. If they lose patience and withdraw all support from NATO then all of Ukraine will become another vassal state of Russia. If they arm Ukraine with long range weapons, sanction those buying from Russia and provide genuine security guarantees then a compromise settlement could be found.
 
I follow what Stirling says and concur with the essential points.
I think this could be another Vietnam, with only the civilian population being the big losses, as the long battles serve as a testing ground for new weapons and delivery techniques.

As a slight aside, the increase in military spending as a % of GDP, must be nearly £20 with the way the UK economy is being run.
And who benefits from arms sales ? The shareholders and CEO's, who happen to be former MP's and their agencies.
With the white male heterosexual population being discriminated against in careers paths, you wonder if there will be anyone in the UK population wanting to join the armed services. I don't see queues of migrants and rainbow flags outside the Army recruitment centres. 😀

I just see Ukraine sitting in an inconvenient position, in that Russia really has to take it back. There can't be any compromises as far as Russia is concerned.
Courting Ukraine to join NATO has rather blown up in NATO's face and shown, when push comes to shove, the organisation is impotent.
 
Potentially using Oreshric missles but definitely Iskander.

Large Ukrainian drone strike in progress, hundreds of drones in the air over Russia heading towards Moscow.

Wagner are officially returning to the front in Ukraine, with their first deployment.

They have reopened recruitment to the organisation, the recruitment video isn't very subtle.
 
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This war would never have happened if the neo cons had kept out of Ukraine.

One of the most avoidable, warned about and most sign posted wars in history.

But the dullards/dishonest only focus on 2022.

What's worst is that the Ukrainian people at no point ever voted for any of this. Only around 7 percent had voted for the strongly anti Russian nationalists.

Zelensky himself won portraying himself as the peace candidate but once elected tacked himself to US state department policy instead of neutrality.

They are a socially conservative people but already have been forced by the US to change laws and embrace progressive values......None of that is by choice but by dictate.
 
This war would never have happened if the neo cons had kept out of Ukraine.

One of the most avoidable, warned about and most sign posted wars in history.

But the dullards/dishonest only focus on 2022.

What's worst is that the Ukrainian people at no point ever voted for any of this. Only around 7 percent had voted for the strongly anti Russian nationalists.

Zelensky himself won portraying himself as the peace candidate but once elected tacked himself to US state department policy instead of neutrality.

They are a socially conservative people but already have been forced by the US to change laws and embrace progressive values......None of that is by choice but by dictate.

When was the last time you visited Ukraine or spoke to a Ukrainian? Or is this another thing you’ve been ‘hearing’?
 

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