War in Ukraine

Spindle said:
I don't.

Johnson would've been better reminding the fat c*** about how many Brits fought on Greek soil against the Germans. Or maybe about just giving up a few islands to the Turks, and also about that rift they have on their northern border.
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What the feck has a war near 80 years ago....where we fought on the side of Stalin.....got to do with a war between slavs in Eastern Europe?

We have no business in Ukraine.

When I was growing up it was part of the Soviet Union.....We stuck our nose in there and it's a war of choice.

No more wars for the 'ethnic disputes' of foreigners.

All it does is cost us higher energy bills.....there is zero upside.
 
Spindle said:
I don't.

Johnson would've been better reminding the fat c*** about how many Brits fought on Greek soil against the Germans. Or maybe about just giving up a few islands to the Turks, and also about that rift they have on their northern border.
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My grandad spoke about having to fight the Greeks in 45. He wasn't happy about it. Neither were they - and like everything else, we've got over it, they haven't.
 
eaglesdare said:
You don't want children to stop dying?
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The trouble is with people like you is that you think it's all completely avoidable, like if you do what Putin wants then there's no death, it's all peace and love. This idea of staying out of it comes from you being all safe and cushty and wealthy but you don't seem to understand that the only way that could've happened is because of strength against aggressors like Putin. I guess if you were in charge we'd have no military at all right? What's the need after all? No military, no dead kids right?

He invaded, he took kids from parents east by the hundreds and distributed them to new families. Would've ploughed through butchering, kidnapping, and brainwashing, and whatever else, Ukraine gone, who cares let them lay down. Then onto Latvia, Lithuania, not our business of course, and on, and on.

And I bet you think you're a patriot
 
Spindle said:
The trouble is with people like you is that you think it's all completely avoidable, like if you do what Putin wants then there's no death, it's all peace and love. This idea of staying out of it comes from you being all safe and cushty and wealthy but you don't seem to understand that the only way that could've happened is because of strength against aggressors like Putin. I guess if you were in charge we'd have no military at all right? What's the need after all? No military, no dead kids right?

He invaded, he took kids from parents east by the hundreds and distributed them to new families. Would've ploughed through butchering, kidnapping, and brainwashing, and whatever else, Ukraine gone, who cares let them lay down. Then onto Latvia, Lithuania, not our business of course, and on, and on.

And I bet you think you're a patriot
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My argument for peace isn’t about surrendering to aggression or ignoring the invasionn by Russia.
It is about finding a path to stop the bloodshed without escalating violence that risks more lives and an escalation in conflict.

I am all for showing strength against aggressors but I am also for trying to find ways for peace and diplomacy.

So are you happy for the war to continue with more family's displaced, children taken away or killed? Or would you like to find a way for peace?

Surely my stance is not unreasonable?
 
eaglesdare said:
My argument for peace isn’t about surrendering to aggression or ignoring the invasionn by Russia.
It is about finding a path to stop the bloodshed without escalating violence that risks more lives and an escalation in conflict.

I am all for showing strength against aggressors but I am also for trying to find ways for peace and diplomacy.

So are you happy for the war to continue with more family's displaced, children taken away or killed? Or would you like to find a way for peace?

Surely my stance is not unreasonable?
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Your position is to concede for peace, and whether the war is started or not, that will be taken advantage of by someone who can see you will concede. If your path is for the whole west to say they aren't interested it's not our problem then that isn't a path that will work, and the path really is to show Putin the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

It is mostly men dying out there, mostly innocent and good people, disproportionately Russian. Of course in our "equal" society they aren't so valued.

I wonder how many of our patriots here have given thought to how Britain would've got on without allied help in 40-42. I bet they think we stood alone.
 
Spindle said:
Your position is to concede for peace, and whether the war is started or not, that will be taken advantage of by someone who can see you will concede. If your path is for the whole west to say they aren't interested it's not our problem then that isn't a path that will work, and the path really is to show Putin the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

It is mostly men dying out there, mostly innocent and good people, disproportionately Russian. Of course in our "equal" society they aren't so valued.

I wonder how many of our patriots here have given thought to how Britain would've got on without allied help in 40-42. I bet they think we stood alone.
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The goal is to stop the deaths of innocent men women and children. Not to let the war become endless. Like the Allies in WWII we can stand united without escalating bloodshed. Isn’t that worth pursuing?
 
If only we'd have just given everything to Putin as he wanted instead of arming up so provocatively none of this would've happened
 
Spindle said:
If only we'd have just given everything to Putin as he wanted instead of arming up so provocatively none of this would've happened
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Again, your framing of this is way off.

We have no business in Ukraine.

If the west hadn't helped overthrow their government there would be no war.

Your depiction of Putin ignores everything about the history and indeed, the west's relationship with him up until the policy change under Bush.

You just want this country involved more deeply in a war.....the cost of which we already can't afford.
 
And you are framing it. You are making out there was a decent legit and popular government replaced, as if by coup, but in reality it was a corruptly installed pro soviet puppet leader via stuffed ballot boxes highly corrupt and unpopular leading to demonstration and revolt. A COMEDIAN beat him with massive support, Zelensky was no western installed leader.

And we do have business there I'm afraid. I've gone over this a few days back. Your strategy for peace was never possible, and I'm afraid we have to show strength and resolve.

Unlike you, having worked in defence I'm party to security information and unlike Joe public the enemy has never wavered from mother Russia because they've never stopped at any point. And Putin is a snake with a soviet objective, just because he met Blair a few times was just another of his longer strategies for that, he has no intention of being allied, never has. More fool you.
 
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Stirlingsays said:
What the feck has a war near 80 years ago....where we fought on the side of Stalin.....got to do with a war between slavs in Eastern Europe?

We have no business in Ukraine.

When I was growing up it was part of the Soviet Union.....We stuck our nose in there and it's a war of choice.

No more wars for the 'ethnic disputes' of foreigners.

All it does is cost us higher energy bills.....there is zero upside.
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It was when I was growing up too and that’s much longer ago!

Things change and this change was brought about by Gorbachev recognising the failure of the Soviet Union and trying to modernise and open it which precipitated its collapse. The west’s mistake, primarily that of the USA, was in giving undertakings not to expand NATO eastwards which were not followed through.

It’s easy to be wise after the event but you can see why. When newly freed countries look west for both their economic expansion and security how can you not respond? Especially if you are the USA.

Couple that with the untrustworthy character of Putin and you end up where we are.

The reality we face is how to bring this to an end in a way that provides genuine security for all. Redrawing maps that can simply be ignored isn’t enough. There must be both carrots and sticks used to ensure compliance with agreements. There don’t seem to be too many of either around that are of much interest to Putin.
 
Spindle said:
And you are framing it. You are making out there was a decent legit and popular government replaced, as if by coup, but in reality it was a corruptly installed pro soviet puppet leader via stuffed ballot boxes highly corrupt and unpopular leading to demonstration and revolt. A COMEDIAN beat him with massive support, Zelensky was no western installed leader.
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All of that is just propaganda from pro war defenders and the opposite of the truth.

Spindle said:
And we do have business there I'm afraid. I've gone over this a few days back. Your strategy for peace was never possible, and I'm afraid we have to show strength and resolve.
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No we don't.

It's a war of choice that 'we' (state department 'neocons') provoked.

Spindle said:
Unlike you, having worked in defence I'm party to security information and unlike Joe public the enemy has never wavered from mother Russia because they've never stopped at any point. And Putin is a snake with a soviet objective, just because he met Blair a few times was just another of his longer strategies for that, he has no intention of being allied, never has. More fool you.
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Well, I think when it comes to predictions over what the result of actions would be, and who has supported what course of action should be taken from years ago even......and what the actual results of that have been....

Well, let's just say that I think accusing me of being the fool is like living life without a feedback loop.
 
Spindle said:
Ok, we're corrupt, Russia are the honest ones.

Lol.
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You know I'm not saying that.

Why should I care whether Russia are corrupt or not.....both Ukraine and Russia are pretty bad corruption wise anyway.

We don't go around worrying about how corrupt the Saudis are do we.....and we treat them like royalty.

Their underlings come over here fecking our women in their posh London hotels every day of the week.
 
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We have pumped millions of weapons into Ukraine.....which like Russia isn't that far off a mafia state.

All that money and equipment wasn't tracked (we borrowed to loan and are in hock if they don't pay back).....a lot of it has been back-handed.

After the war a percent of those weapons are going to be sold to terror groups and all the rest of it.

Only a 'fool' would think otherwise.

And they blew up that pipeline leading to higher energy prices....Yet I'm expected to love Ukraine! Both Russia and Ukraine are a fecking pain in the arse.

It can be known that I supported none of this.
 
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