War in Ukraine

[georgenorman]

As with the Israel Hamas war, it boils down to who you would prefer to win - Russia or Ukraine?

 

[Stirlingsays]

As with the Israel Hamas war, it boils down to who you would prefer to win - Russia or Ukraine?

Personally I don't see it like that....I don't really have strong feelings about countries outside of my own island other than caring that they are European with northern European being the most important within that.

For me it's more about intelligent policy that results in the least worse outcomes for us. When I say us, I mean us plebs and what it costs us and commits us to...not the morons who invested heavily in Ukraine....which is the real reason they initially cared so much. Ukraine was a hub for a hell of a lot of dirty money.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Russia took around 45 square km yesterday.

 

[Rudi Hedman]

Russia took around 45 square km yesterday.

Day by day Zelenskyy’s bargaining position gets weaker and weaker and probably won’t bounce back.

 

[georgenorman]

Personally I don't see it like that....I don't really have strong feelings about countries outside of my own island other than caring that they are European with northern European being the most important within that.

For me it's more about intelligent policy that results in the least worse outcomes for us. When I say us, I mean us plebs and what it costs us and commits us to...not the morons who invested heavily in Ukraine....which is the real reason they initially cared so much. Ukraine was a hub for a hell of a lot of dirty money.

I expect many had similar views about Czechoslovakia in 1938.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I expect many had similar views about Czechoslovakia in 1938.

Yeah, three nearly four years to take 20 percent of Ukraine and you're worried about Slavs invading France?

Putin isn't Hitler....and regardless like Hitler he doesn't have the kind of manpower you'd need for taking Europe....nor the economy for that matter.

The only real affect of this war for someone like you or me is sky high energy bills and deeper national debt. You can listen to all the moral waffle the elite class sell you (double standards when you look at Gaza) or you can be skeptical of why we are there in the first place.

Even if Putin was Hitler and you were right to think that.....You do realise George that your grandchildren are being replaced?.....What are we defending exactly? Nightclubs for trannies? DEI to ensure your kid's kids can't get a decent job? Is Putin going to throw Lucy Connelly in jail for complaining about migrant hotels?

My grandfather's generation had something to defend and even some of them were skeptical over what was being asked of them.

 

[georgenorman]

Yeah, three nearly four years to take 20 percent of Ukraine and you're worried about Slavs invading France?

Putin isn't Hitler....and regardless like Hitler he doesn't have the kind of manpower you'd need for taking Europe....nor the economy for that matter.

The only real affect of this war for someone like you or me is sky high energy bills and deeper national debt. You can listen to all the moral waffle the elite class sell you (double standards when you look at Gaza) or you can be skeptical of why we are there in the first place.

Even if Putin was Hitler and you were right to think that.....You do realise George that your grandchildren are being replaced?.....What are we defending exactly? Nightclubs for trannies? DEI to ensure your kid's kids can't get a decent job? Is Putin going to throw Lucy Connelly in jail for complaining about migrant hotels?

My grandfather's generation had something to defend and even some of them were skeptical over what was being asked of them.

We are just going to have to disagree on this and Israel - Ukraine and Israel are fighting proxy wars for us. Putin will take as much as he can and only respects force, similar to Islamic Fascism. Even with the state of current Western governments, I would still want to live under their jurisdiction rather than the likes of Putin and Hamas. I agree with you on the appalling cultural degeneracy here now but we have some hope of changing things - we achieved Brexit after all.

 

[Stirlingsays]

We are just going to have to disagree on this and Israel - Ukraine and Israel are fighting proxy wars for us. Putin will take as much as he can and only respects force, similar to Islamic Fascism. Even with the state of current Western governments, I would still want to live under their jurisdiction rather than the likes of Putin and Hamas. I agree with you on the appalling cultural degeneracy here now but we have some hope of changing things - we achieved Brexit after all.

Yep, we will just have to disagree.

Either Ukraine nor Israel give a feck about us but you feel what you feel and cool.

As for you thinking you have something to defend? Well, I've made my points about what the state of life is now....and that's just now, with Lucy Connelly being just one example and well, I've already had Police sent to my door and maybe if that happens to someone you care about, maybe you'll consider this again.

We voted for Brexit....we didn't get Brexit.

 

[georgenorman]

Yep, we will just have to disagree.

Either Ukraine nor Israel give a feck about us but you feel what you feel and cool.

As for you thinking you have something to defend? Well, I've made my points about what the state of life is now....and that's just now, with Lucy Connelly being just one example and well, I've already had Police sent to my door or someone you care about, maybe you'll consider this again.

We voted for Brexit....we didn't get Brexit.

I know that Ukraine and Israel are not literally fighting for us. You can't just shrug your shoulders, read Orwell's My Country Right or Left.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I know that Ukraine and Israel are not literally fighting for us. You can't just shrug your shoulders, read Orwell's My Country Right or Left.

While we know the parts of Orwell that we agree with.....as an author, he's very talented but I just found him a bit too lecturing and nic picky.....and at the end of the day he was a socialist.....just not the progressive kind.

 

[georgenorman]

While we know the parts of Orwell that we agree with.....as an author, he's very talented but I just found him a bit too lecturing and nic picky.....and at the end of the day he was a socialist.....just not the progressive kind.

I would probably have been a socialist at that time - all very different then. He was a very odd socialist and seemed to dislike most of his comrades and opponents in equal measure! I always find it telling that Evelyn Waugh was an admirer.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I would probably have been a socialist at that time - all very different then. He was a very odd socialist and seemed to dislike most of his comrades and opponents in equal measure! I always find it telling that Evelyn Waugh was an admirer.

Very different times with a very different right and left.

Orwell definitely have a good moral basis.

I'm more Franco though personally....Orwell ended up fighting on the side of the commies....though he criticized them.

Then again, if it moved he criticised it.

 

[Muppedo]

But my dude! You said, 'If you can name just ONE international deal that Putin has kept his word on I will be impressed.'...You should be falling over yourself in lavishing praise on me!...It's not my fault that you spread your legs and asked to be kicked with that one.



Google is a bit out of date Spindle, I use Grok.



Now like you I don't actually know the balanced truth about most of these and maybe on the ones I'm not commenting on it's a fair reading of the situation or maybe not.

Budapest Memorandum
However, I do know that how the Budapest Memorandum is presented here that this is not a balanced reading of the situation, for example the nuclear missiles in question were never Ukraine's to begin with but belonged to the USSR and were created in Russia and located in Ukraine and could only be controlled by Moscow. Also it's wrong to say that a cast iron guarantee was made on security as none of that was passed in any government and thus was a diplomatic agreement only.

Minsk Agreements (2014 & 2015)
I also know that this is another very one eyed reading and that Russia had been claiming that Ukraine were breaking the terms of these agreements from the start.

Georgia is a border state to Russia that the US/Europe were interfering in with more funded 'colour' revolutions. So I regard this as another very one eyed reading. Again, if a foreign state were turning Wales against England and trying to overthrow the government then we would be highly interested and our involvement in Ireland is evidence of us protecting our close by interests.....Similarly America has the Monroe doctrine and has shown on multiple occasions....for example the Cuban missile crises that it won't abide foreign intervention close to its borders.



Just like getting my name wrong the reality is different. It's not that I like Russia....Why would I give a feck about Russia? It's more that I'm interested in the balanced truth rather than biased narratives that refuse to acknowledge the grey-ness of reality.

You see Spindle, If I'm going to war....then I don't like to lose. And I've been pretty consistent once I looked into this years ago that this was a very bad idea.....Especially avoiding the deal back in 2022.

In fact at the start of the thread (On Hol's original site) I started out supporting Ukraine. It's only when I looked at the narratives of both sides and even more importantly the most likely outcome that I became more annoyed with everything about this war and the foolishness and avoidable destruction of it.

As for yourself Spindle you seem to have avoided any of the grey and gone straight for swallowing only one side of the analysis.

 

[Muppedo]

oh yes. That nasty invading imperialist Putin. Has just robbed.....eh.......some Russian speaking territory from NATO. oh right.
'Ukraine' isn't even a proper country. East and West are two different languages.....Ukranian and Russian. NATO and the West are the instigators of all the trouble here. For at least the last thirty years. Planting their flags closer and closer to Moscow.
In 1989 the Iron Curtain fell, and ever since The West has been taking territory from the East.

I think there is very little understanding of the genuine fears of the Russian people. From 1991-2014 most of their previous satellite states gradually westernised and became part of NATO on their borders. Ukraine with it's pro-Russian stance was always considered a close friend, Like the UK and Ireland. Then suddenly there is a revolution that most Russians believe was western funded. On the new elections many eastern provinces didn't vote so a pro-western government was formed. Russia scared and knowing the geographical value of the Crimea and that most Crimeans felt themselves Russian, took it over. Then the new Ukraine government had an anti-Russian stance. the rumours that Russian would be dropped as an official language ( at least 30% of Ukrainan's first language including Zelensky) and the requests for EU membership and NATO all added to their fears. Most eastern provinces had close ties and family connections with Russia, and a rumoured threat that Ukraine might put these provinces under Martial law possibly kick started the invasion.
If Putin had just grabbed these areas and not gone full Tonto for Kyiv this war might have been over years ago.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I think there is very little understanding of the genuine fears of the Russian people. From 1991-2014 most of their previous satellite states gradually westernised and became part of NATO on their borders. Ukraine with it's pro-Russian stance was always considered a close friend, Like the UK and Ireland. Then suddenly there is a revolution that most Russians believe was western funded. On the new elections many eastern provinces didn't vote so a pro-western government was formed. Russia scared and knowing the geographical value of the Crimea and that most Crimeans felt themselves Russian, took it over. Then the new Ukraine government had an anti-Russian stance. the rumours that Russian would be dropped as an official language ( at least 30% of Ukrainan's first language including Zelensky) and the requests for EU membership and NATO all added to their fears. Most eastern provinces had close ties and family connections with Russia, and a rumoured threat that Ukraine might put these provinces under Martial law possibly kick started the invasion.
If Putin had just grabbed these areas and not gone full Tonto for Kyiv this war might have been over years ago.

At the time the Russian Army wasn't capable of that.

The west had built up the Ukrainian army to the largest and strongest in Europe and a large reason Russia were set and driven back in 2023 was down to the fact that they had over extended their forces into Ukraine expecting the government to collapse there.

Russia is now very much on the front foot and the west are desperate to end the war as to stop an eventual Ukraine collapse, which would require Nato troops and thus a blood price to stop Russia.

Trust between the two sides is now so low that I'm not seeing this ending until late in the year or next year due to Russia deciding to set it's own border.....hopefully I'm wrong.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Just as I criticised Biden for bringing China and Russia much closer together into their own unspoken alliance I'm going to criticise Trump for bringing India much closer to China as they have just committed to over recent meetings.

Trump need to realise that soft power matters and that bullying large nations doesn't work like it does with client states like Europe.

Trump is just strengthening BRICs and needs to recognise this folly and not double down on it like Biden did.

And it all stems from this war.