US Politics

[georgenorman]

Firstly, there was no 'left' to talk about in Victorian times; certainly no 'left' party, merely those who supported the poor liberating themselves from the the yoke placed there by the money makers. Any changes were brought about by those who existed within the main political parties. No doubt, as stated above, reviled for doing so by those who thought such measures would decrease profits.

Of course you are correct about the devastating cruelty of communist regimes in he past.

Do you really think the statement you so baldly make is true - really? Certainly the standard of living has increased in this country but if you think that associated improvements in living conditions and the welfare of the poor and disadvantage would have come about within a capitalist society without the promptings and fighting of those who believed in a better life for all, you are misguided.

Directly after the revolution, Churchill and the 'white' army were attempting to overthrow the infant communist regime. Did he do this in order to protect the civil liberties of those in Russia? no, it was to prevent such political thought 'infecting' the rest of Europe, including us. That is, to prevent any political thought that might (would) undermine and obstruct those who owned the wealth here - for their benefit.

The arrest and deportation of the Tolpuddle Martyrs in Dorset , as they met to organise the first trade union is testament to what lengths the money-men were prepared to go to. The fact that the TMs returned to the UK as heroes of the working classes shows us that this movement was ground - based, not the puppet of political left wingers.

Changes in living standards were brought about in this country within a mixed economy of right and left including the trade union movement, whom I suspect you revile as 'commies' or anti - freedom.

So, yes, the left has 'generated' progress. Had it been left solely to the capital men, I would argue that very little progress would have been achieved.

Certainly there was a ‘Left’ in Victorian times, the Chartist movement involved thousands. The profit motive fuels progress and creates jobs, businesses want people to have money to buy their products and services. I’m glad that you recognise the, in your words, “devastating cruelty” of the Communist system. So what is the alternative to Capitalism – workers were clearly worse off under Communism. You will say Socialism, yet the economies of the Communist countries were pure Socialism – the complete abolition of Capitalism, which is presumably what you aspire to.
Certainly Britain played a small part in trying to overthrow the Communist regime in Russia, it is just a pity they didn’t do more and succeed, and saved the millions of lives sacrificed in the name of Marxism.
Tolpuddle Martyrs? Yes, 2 or three years in Australia. Workers in Soviet Russia who tried to organise were arrested, tortured and shot.
I don’t revile the trade union movement – I was a union rep in my workplace in my twenties.

 

[Eaglehamster]

Certainly there was a ‘Left’ in Victorian times, the Chartist movement involved thousands. The profit motive fuels progress and creates jobs, businesses want people to have money to buy their products and services. I’m glad that you recognise the, in your words, “devastating cruelty” of the Communist system. So what is the alternative to Capitalism – workers were clearly worse off under Communism. You will say Socialism, yet the economies of the Communist countries were pure Socialism – the complete abolition of Capitalism, which is presumably what you aspire to.
Certainly Britain played a small part in trying to overthrow the Communist regime in Russia, it is just a pity they didn’t do more and succeed, and saved the millions of lives sacrificed in the name of Marxism.
Tolpuddle Martyrs? Yes, 2 or three years in Australia. Workers in Soviet Russia who tried to organise were arrested, tortured and shot.
I don’t revile the trade union movement – I was a union rep in my workplace in my twenties.

Nice you have such a rosy view of the past. In Victorian Britain working people were literally slaves, Children working in mills and factories for just having a roof over their heads. The owners paid them as little as possible while they built their mansions - now called stately homes. The unions were necessary then and they’ll be necessary again as the wealth polarises to the super rich, which is so obvious today.

 

[eaglesdare]

I agree without labour, left and unions we would never have the workers rights we have today like 5 day weeks, weekends off, vacation days etc...but labour and the left have moved away from their focus years ago on workers rights and have embraced woke ideologies.

But then so did the Tories during their recent stint in power. 🤷🏻‍♂️ Only reform can stop the rot...but that's for a different thread.

 

[Glazier#1]

Certainly there was a ‘Left’ in Victorian times, the Chartist movement involved thousands. The profit motive fuels progress and creates jobs, businesses want people to have money to buy their products and services. I’m glad that you recognise the, in your words, “devastating cruelty” of the Communist system. So what is the alternative to Capitalism – workers were clearly worse off under Communism. You will say Socialism, yet the economies of the Communist countries were pure Socialism – the complete abolition of Capitalism, which is presumably what you aspire to.
Certainly Britain played a small part in trying to overthrow the Communist regime in Russia, it is just a pity they didn’t do more and succeed, and saved the millions of lives sacrificed in the name of Marxism.
Tolpuddle Martyrs? Yes, 2 or three years in Australia. Workers in Soviet Russia who tried to organise were arrested, tortured and shot.
I don’t revile the trade union movement – I was a union rep in my workplace in my twenties.

Oh, you presume this, do you? That surprises me not.
Union rep?
I see your posts regularly and you write with such venom against what appears to be your avowed enemy - anything approaching left leaning thought. It is difficult to believe you have a left bone in your body.

Trouble is that the baby goes out with the bath water. You assume that any left thought makes someone a commie. Not everything goes in extremes, you know.

Well, ok, align yourself to Trump, Reform but it’s ironic when their service charge will be so high, in my opinion.

So long as you are happy to see the introduction of private medicine, for instance, because, believe me, there’s one example of such a ‘service charge that will be levied.

Despite what they say.

 

[HKOwen]

Nice you have such a rosy view of the past. In Victorian Britain working people were literally slaves, Children working in mills and factories for just having a roof over their heads. The owners paid them as little as possible while they built their mansions - now called stately homes. The unions were necessary then and they’ll be necessary again as the wealth polarises to the super rich, which is so obvious today.

They were not literally slaves, poor conditions yes, which is different.

Almost, close to being, in all but name, all good choices.

Expect to be pulled up on what you write rather than what you meant, unless you meant literally, in which case you are incorrect.

 

[Spiderman]

Nice you have such a rosy view of the past. In Victorian Britain working people were literally slaves, Children working in mills and factories for just having a roof over their heads. The owners paid them as little as possible while they built their mansions - now called stately homes. The unions were necessary then and they’ll be necessary again as the wealth polarises to the super rich, which is so obvious today.

Bloody White privilege eh!

 

[georgenorman]

Oh, you presume this, do you? That surprises me not.
Union rep?
I see your posts regularly and you write with such venom against what appears to be your avowed enemy - anything approaching left leaning thought. It is difficult to believe you have a left bone in your body.

Trouble is that the baby goes out with the bath water. You assume that any left thought makes someone a commie. Not everything goes in extremes, you know.

Well, ok, align yourself to Trump, Reform but it’s ironic when their service charge will be so high, in my opinion.

So long as you are happy to see the introduction of private medicine, for instance, because, believe me, there’s one example of such a ‘service charge that will be levied.

Despite what they say.

Robert Owen (1771-1858) by his own efforts, became a wealthy Capitalist textile manufacturer and lived in a large house with servants. He treated his employees very well and used his wealth to promote social reforms, supported child labour legislation and fee education and founded the co-operative movement.
Jospeh Rowntree (1836-1925) by his own efforts, became a wealthy Capitalist chocolate manufacturer, employing over 4,000 to whom he provided the first occupational pension scheme, a library, free education, a social welfare officer, a doctor and a dentist.
You know nothing about me. Yes, I was a Union rep and at the same time a fairly active member of the Labour Party. In my teens I went on marches with the far-left Socialist Labour League (but never actually joined that party). My politics changed as I saw the continuing failure of Labour in power and the disregard of any social responsibility and wrecking by union barons like Scanlon and Jones which made the lives of other ordinary working people more miserable. I welcomed the rise of David Owen as an alternative to the ridiculous Michael Foot (Owen still continues to talk sense in his advanced years – listen to him on the EU. He was once for membership but, not being dogmatic, changed his mind.)
I don’t align myself with Trump or Reform. I vote for the SDP when they have a candidate in my area. (yes, they are still going but are far more to the right than they were originally – check them out.) In this month’s county elections, I voted Tory – an ex-Liberal sitting councillor, now Independent, won.
If a degree of private medicine was used to make the NHS work better and still provide free treatment why wouldn’t anyone be ok with that? I general, I would like to see far less government and taxation and think that Regional Mayors and Police Commissioners should be abolished, along with many Quangos.
I don’t think everyone on the Left is, as you say, ‘a commie’ – although Steeleye on here happily admits to it. I just think that the modern Left no longer represents ordinary British people. The majority of their ideas are downright dangerous and irresponsible, their championing of numerous minority causes plain daft and endanger the stability and prosperity of the country. As Orwell said: “So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot.”

 

[Glazier#1]

Robert Owen (1771-1858) by his own efforts, became a wealthy Capitalist textile manufacturer and lived in a large house with servants. He treated his employees very well and used his wealth to promote social reforms, supported child labour legislation and fee education and founded the co-operative movement.
Jospeh Rowntree (1836-1925) by his own efforts, became a wealthy Capitalist chocolate manufacturer, employing over 4,000 to whom he provided the first occupational pension scheme, a library, free education, a social welfare officer, a doctor and a dentist.
You know nothing about me. Yes, I was a Union rep and at the same time a fairly active member of the Labour Party. In my teens I went of marches with the far-left Socialist Labour League (but never actually joined that party). My politics changed as I saw the continuing failure of Labour in power and the disregard of any social responsibility and wrecking by union barons like Scanlon and Jones which made the lives of other ordinary working people more miserable. I welcomed the rise of David Owen as an alternative to the ridiculous Michael Foot (Owen still continues to talk sense in his advanced years – listen to him on the EU. He was once for membership but, not being dogmatic, changed his mind.)
I don’t align myself with Trump or Reform. I vote for the SDP when they have a candidate in my area. (yes, they are still going but are far more to the right than they were originally – check them out.) In this month’s county elections, I voted Tory – an ex-Liberal sitting councillor, now Independent, won.
If degree of private medicine was used to make the NHS work better and still provide free treatment why wouldn’t anyone be ok with that? I general, I would like to see far less government and taxation and think that Regional Mayors and Police Commissioners should be abolished, along with many Quangos.
I don’t think everyone on the Left is, as you say, ‘a commie’ – although Steeleye on here happily admits to it. I just think that the modern Left no longer represents ordinary British people. The majority of their ideas are downright dangerous and irresponsible, their championing of numerous minority causes plain daft and endanger the stability and prosperity of the country. As Orwell said: “So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot.”

The Rowntrees were/are quakers so their business practices were informed by that. An important addition, this. A rarity.

As for the NHS, the introduction of private medicine might not be so bad if it wasn’t simply a ‘taster’, precursor of full - blown privatisation. This would be the tactics of the right-dogmatists who see the NHS as diametrically opposed to to their idea of a perfect UK.

On taxation I would say that it’s taxation that gives us so much of what we have but it’s skewed. You may not agree with this but I would advocate taxing the multinationals who dodge so much. I would say “If you don’t want to contribute to the society that provides you with your profits, then by all means take your business elsewhere”, knowing that there would be those who are prepared to pay and still make good profits. All British governments have been craven in dealing with the multinationals.

 

[georgenorman]

The Rowntrees were/are quakers so their business practices were informed by that. An important addition, this. A rarity.

As for the NHS, the introduction of private medicine might not be so bad if it wasn’t simply a ‘taster’, precursor of full - blown privatisation. This would be the tactics of the right-dogmatists who see the NHS as diametrically opposed to to their idea of a perfect UK.

On taxation I would say that it’s taxation that gives us so much of what we have but it’s skewed. You may not agree with this but I would advocate taxing the multinationals who dodge so much. I would say “If you don’t want to contribute to the society that provides you with your profits, then by all means take your business elsewhere”, knowing that there would be those who are prepared to pay and still make good profits. All British governments have been craven in dealing with the multinationals.

Calls for even higher taxation are extraordinary when we continually see billions simply wasted and used to support yet more over-government that generates even more ludicrous ways of wasting more. Giving taxes to governments is like giving whisky to an alcoholic.
It is daft to preserve the NHS in its current form when it is clearly failing.

 

[Glazier#1]

Calls for even higher taxation are extraordinary when we continually see billions simply wasted and used to support yet more over-government that generates even more ludicrous ways of wasting more. Giving taxes to governments is like giving whisky to an alcoholic.
It is daft to preserve the NHS in its current form when it is clearly failing.

Hmmm