US Politics

[georgenorman]

Firstly, there was no 'left' to talk about in Victorian times; certainly no 'left' party, merely those who supported the poor liberating themselves from the the yoke placed there by the money makers. Any changes were brought about by those who existed within the main political parties. No doubt, as stated above, reviled for doing so by those who thought such measures would decrease profits.

Of course you are correct about the devastating cruelty of communist regimes in he past.

Do you really think the statement you so baldly make is true - really? Certainly the standard of living has increased in this country but if you think that associated improvements in living conditions and the welfare of the poor and disadvantage would have come about within a capitalist society without the promptings and fighting of those who believed in a better life for all, you are misguided.

Directly after the revolution, Churchill and the 'white' army were attempting to overthrow the infant communist regime. Did he do this in order to protect the civil liberties of those in Russia? no, it was to prevent such political thought 'infecting' the rest of Europe, including us. That is, to prevent any political thought that might (would) undermine and obstruct those who owned the wealth here - for their benefit.

The arrest and deportation of the Tolpuddle Martyrs in Dorset , as they met to organise the first trade union is testament to what lengths the money-men were prepared to go to. The fact that the TMs returned to the UK as heroes of the working classes shows us that this movement was ground - based, not the puppet of political left wingers.

Changes in living standards were brought about in this country within a mixed economy of right and left including the trade union movement, whom I suspect you revile as 'commies' or anti - freedom.

So, yes, the left has 'generated' progress. Had it been left solely to the capital men, I would argue that very little progress would have been achieved.

Certainly there was a ‘Left’ in Victorian times, the Chartist movement involved thousands. The profit motive fuels progress and creates jobs, businesses want people to have money to buy their products and services. I’m glad that you recognise the, in your words, “devastating cruelty” of the Communist system. So what is the alternative to Capitalism – workers were clearly worse off under Communism. You will say Socialism, yet the economies of the Communist countries were pure Socialism – the complete abolition of Capitalism, which is presumably what you aspire to.
Certainly Britain played a small part in trying to overthrow the Communist regime in Russia, it is just a pity they didn’t do more and succeed, and saved the millions of lives sacrificed in the name of Marxism.
Tolpuddle Martyrs? Yes, 2 or three years in Australia. Workers in Soviet Russia who tried to organise were arrested, tortured and shot.
I don’t revile the trade union movement – I was a union rep in my workplace in my twenties.

 

[Eaglehamster]

Certainly there was a ‘Left’ in Victorian times, the Chartist movement involved thousands. The profit motive fuels progress and creates jobs, businesses want people to have money to buy their products and services. I’m glad that you recognise the, in your words, “devastating cruelty” of the Communist system. So what is the alternative to Capitalism – workers were clearly worse off under Communism. You will say Socialism, yet the economies of the Communist countries were pure Socialism – the complete abolition of Capitalism, which is presumably what you aspire to.
Certainly Britain played a small part in trying to overthrow the Communist regime in Russia, it is just a pity they didn’t do more and succeed, and saved the millions of lives sacrificed in the name of Marxism.
Tolpuddle Martyrs? Yes, 2 or three years in Australia. Workers in Soviet Russia who tried to organise were arrested, tortured and shot.
I don’t revile the trade union movement – I was a union rep in my workplace in my twenties.

Nice you have such a rosy view of the past. In Victorian Britain working people were literally slaves, Children working in mills and factories for just having a roof over their heads. The owners paid them as little as possible while they built their mansions - now called stately homes. The unions were necessary then and they’ll be necessary again as the wealth polarises to the super rich, which is so obvious today.

 

[eaglesdare]

I agree without labour, left and unions we would never have the workers rights we have today like 5 day weeks, weekends off, vacation days etc...but labour and the left have moved away from their focus years ago on workers rights and have embraced woke ideologies.

But then so did the Tories during their recent stint in power. 🤷🏻‍♂️ Only reform can stop the rot...but that's for a different thread.