US Politics

[Spiderman]

Only those who are completely prejudiced themselves would consider my approach to be ironic.

I don’t deny for a moment that I have expectations of the kind of behaviour we saw from that agent. ICE agents have previous. Having expectations doesn’t mean that you are incapable of viewing events and evaluating them on their merits. I can, and do, and have. Quite unlike some posting here.

So you never allow your prejudices to dominate reasoning! 🤔 ok

 

[Spiderman]

Whilst that would be sensible advice to anyone deciding to confront the thugs being put in an ICE uniform and sent into locations where they are uninvited and unwelcome, it doesn’t justify or excuse what happened. This wasn’t an accident.

You do realise law enforcement officers do not need to be invited before going to locations, don’t you? If they waited to be invited how would that work?

 

[Spiderman]

He wasn’t alone. She probably knew he was armed. He had tried to open her door. She knew she wasn’t an illegal immigrant so he had no authority over her. If that was me I would feel threatened. I never seek confrontation in such circumstances. I move away from it. Which is what it seems clear she did too.

Debatable

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

When I have been confronted by legally armed personnel, enforcing legal frameworks, I didn't seek to run away. Of course i felt threatened. I had a firearm (rifle) pointing at my head.
I did not seek to escape or shoot my way out.
I did exactly as I was told, funnily enough.

She chose not to do what was instructed. Different outcome

And even had the personnel not been armed, I would have obeyed instructions. Because I was brought up like that. Respect for authority and not putting myself in harms way,

I said a few posts back, whilst she would have been wise to have been more cautious, that in no way excuses the response of the agent. Despite all the claims being made here she wasn’t obligated to follow his instructions. ICE agents have no authority over citizens other than in very specific circumstances. Which did not exist. The agent attempted to exceed his authority and then reacted really stupidly.

 

[Nutmegyeti]

This is not a fairy tale with a clear villain and a moral at the bottom. It’s a messy human situation where several people made bad decisions in quick succession, and pretending otherwise doesn’t help anyone sleep better at night.

Driving a vehicle toward a law enforcement officer is not a symbolic gesture. A car is not a protest sign. It is a large metal object designed to move fast. Once you point it at someone on foot, intent becomes irrelevant very quickly.
That does not mean the officer’s actions are beyond criticism. Drawing a firearm early was almost certainly an escalation, and in a calmer, better world, different tools might have been used.

Unfortunately, the real world runs on adrenaline. In that moment, the officer had no way of knowing whether the driver was about to stop, reverse, flee, or try again.

Law enforcement officers are paid to deal with disorder, but that does not mean they are immune to danger or magically able to read minds.

When someone refuses to comply and turns a tense interaction into a mobile hazard, they introduce what might politely be called an “occupational risk,” and what less politely could be called a very predictable outcome.

Her “wife” did not help. Interference, confusion, and emotional escalation poured petrol on a situation that was already on fire.
It is possible, and necessary, to hold two thoughts at once - that officers should be held to high standards and scrutinised when force is used, and that civilians do not become blameless simply because they dislike authority. Protest does not come with diplomatic immunity.

If accountability is the goal, honesty is required. You cannot light the matches, complain about the smoke, and then act shocked when the fire alarm goes off.

responsibility’s can be shared, that bad outcomes often come from a series of poor choices, and that shouting “only one side is at fault” is easier than thinking.

I speak to someone whose dad was in the police for 35 years and died on this day five years ago. He was the calmest person I know. He had been shaking his head at the hand ringing on both sides.

 

[Spiderman]

Why?

Whilst nobody involved in that incident, besides the female officer, emerged beyond criticism, the police were responding to an altercation and were then attacked themselves. They restrained with tasers. Not guns. There aren’t any parallels with this incident. Shooting a citizen, clearly not an illegal immigrant, who has annoyed you, isn’t part of the job.

Yet again completely missed the point. When the first videos appeared on social media, they only showed the stamp by the police officer. Certain sections of society, including some on here, were up in arms about police brutality and racism. Only when the videos from the police body cams were released did it show the violence that led to the “stamp “. There it was lucky they had those body cams. I did not mention any parallels it was regarding how body cams can give a different version to social media videos.

 

[cryrst]

Here is a real law enforcement officer expressing her opinion on the ICE shooting of Good. Backed up by the AJ she leaves no doubt about what is going to happen.

So she is correct and the other cop was wrong in an earlier post. Is that what you are saying. Just for context !

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

You do realise law enforcement officers do not need to be invited before going to locations, don’t you? If they waited to be invited how would that work?

Only if they have the appropriate authority or specific circumstances exist.

In the case under discussion ICE agents have nationwide jurisdiction for enforcing federal immigration laws, but their ability to enter specific locations is limited by the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. They cannot go wherever they wish without regard for private property rights or the need for a judicial warrant.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Yet again completely missed the point. When the first videos appeared on social media, they only showed the stamp by the police officer. Certain sections of society, including some on here, were up in arms about police brutality and racism. Only when the videos from the police body cams were released did it show the violence that led to the “stamp “. There it was lucky they had those body cams. I did not mention any parallels it was regarding how body cams can give a different version to social media videos.

Ok but you didn’t make that clear and we are discussing an event in the US in the US politics thread.

 

[Spiderman]

Only if they have the appropriate authority or specific circumstances exist.

In the case under discussion ICE agents have nationwide jurisdiction for enforcing federal immigration laws, but their ability to enter specific locations is limited by the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. They cannot go wherever they wish without regard for private property rights or the need for a judicial warrant.

Were they in private property? How do you know they didn’t have a warrant. I haven’t seen this mentioned, glad to be educated with a link

 

[Spiderman]

Ok but you didn’t make that clear and we are discussing an event in the US in the US politics thread.

I highlighted the section of the post I was commenting on

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Debatable

Some try, but so far as I can determine the law is clear. We will probably find out in the coming weeks.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

So she is correct and the other cop was wrong in an earlier post. Is that what you are saying. Just for context !

The “other cop” was speaking some months ago and made perfectly valid points none of which applied to this event, either theoretically or actually.

This lady is reacting to this event and expressing, very forcibly and directly, what will happen in her area of responsibility if ICE try anything there, being backed by her AG.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

All this speculation and he'll claim mental health issues and that'll be the end of it. As a person who'd previously been dragged by a car it might be true.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Were they in private property? How do you know they didn’t have a warrant. I haven’t seen this mentioned, glad to be educated with a link

There could not have been time to get a warrant to arrest her. Even if it was permitted, which seems extremely unlikely.

They are only permitted to hold a suspected illegal immigrant until an arrest warrant is issued or their enquiries reveal it’s unnecessary. They can only arrest a citizen in very limited and specific circumstances, which did not exist.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

All this speculation and he'll claim mental health issues and that'll be the end of it. As a person who'd previously been dragged by a car it might be true.

As I suggested he has every chance of claiming mitigating circumstances. Which, if true, is perfectly ok.

To get to that point though he needs to be prosecuted and the whole of the ICE operation put under a spotlight in a Court. Its operational instructions, recruitment policies and training regime.

It’s not the agent himself that’s necessarily at fault, although it could be.

 

[cryrst]

There could not have been time to get a warrant to arrest her. Even if it was permitted, which seems extremely unlikely.

They are only permitted to hold a suspected illegal immigrant until an arrest warrant is issued or their enquiries reveal it’s unnecessary. They can only arrest a citizen in very limited and specific circumstances, which did not exist.

So how about she zooms off down the road and wipes out some people with her car as guarantee there would have been a car chase. If she wasn’t prepared to stop there she wasn’t going to voluntarily stop at all. Potentially she was Collateral damage for protection of others. How many drunk drivers make the wrong choice and end up still alive !