US Politics

[Glazier#1]

That's fair. I believe at this point maybe we should all agree to disagree and move on. We arnt getting anywhere. 🙂

So, did you read my post?

 

[eaglesdare]

I didn't miss it out but I did expect someone to jump on that lifebelt. The hindsight is not appropriate here. We see an agent who needn't have acted the way he did, if he was a properly trained, professional operative. You need no benefit of hindsight to act like a professional agent.

They/he didn't.

What about the benefit of foresight?

She and her mates had been doing this all day: a pain in the butt but peaceful. Surely his benefit of hindsight might have told him she, in foresight, was no danger to life. In that case it's appropriate.

No?

My final contribution to this topic is that...both were at fault. The ice officer was quick to draw his gun and the woman equally for dangerous driving and obstructing the law enforcement.

A tragedy all round and one that could have been prevented. The woman's family have to live with it and likewise so to does the ice officer and his family.

I hope that is fair enough and meets you half way?

 

[Stirlingsays]

See what I mean, mate?

The 'truth ' from Spindle/Tate (the portmanteau name would be 'Spite') is garnished by one Mario Fratto, apparently an impartial lawyer and his 'expert's' view. Of course he omits to inform us that Fratto is a republican (Mario Fratto (Republican Party) ran for election to the U.S. House to represent New York's 24th Congressional District. He lost in the Republican primary on June 25, 2024). If I was going to refer to an impartial opinion, I certainly wouldn't consider him to be one; how could anybody?

Then we hear that, "apart from the wheels turning right" everything else pointed to her driving at the agent with intent to endanger life. That little exception is absolutely crucial as to her intent. She was turning her car away from the scene: that's no small matter we can or should just brush over. Why brush over it so readily? It's pivotal.

In Frizzo's video evidence, as the car moves we see the agent seemingly leaning onto the bonnet, as if trying to halt the car, thus putting himself into unnecessary danger. He then fires three shots into the front of the car.

On the point of law about her intent, does it warrant shooting her at all? In Fratto's 'evidence', which I'm presuming is to show how disruptive she was being, we hear a witness saying that protesters (of which she was one) had been hindering the agents all day up to the shooting. No doubt the agents would have found this to be aggravating. However, it does tell us that Good was not going to flee beyond apprehension; she had been there all day and would, no doubt, continue her aggravating behaviour further on. In any event, surely those agents would have taken the car reg already and if not, then during the incident. If she drove off, they ought to have known that they could detain her later knowing her details from the reg. Then would be the point to arrest and charge her, whatever that charge would be.

The assertion that she presented a danger to life after she driven off is just completely unlikely since she'd been there all day and it was clear that she wanted to hinder the agents but never to use her car as a weapon.

Fratto tells us that the agent who shot Good had previously been dragged along the road by a felon's car only last June (!!) necessitating a hospital stay. This is given as some kind of mitigation, I'm assuming. Can anyone tell me how a serving officer who had suffered such trauma could be allowed back into duty without proper management or aftercare in January? Now, I expect the pro agent forces on here would be barking "How do you know there was no aftercare?!?!" to which I would reply "Clearly not enough" or else why would that previous incident have any relevance here?

Situations like those surrounding Good and her confederates were bound to be full of tension and it seems the agent was not ready/ to face these type of scenarios. Yes, the protesters were a pain in the arse but a properly trained agent will expect this; it's par for the course. The fact that an agent shouted "F****** B****" does not suggest, in any way, that the agents present had kept a calm, professional attitude during the exchange.

Yes, not getting out of the car when asked has proved to be a fatal error and, certainly, if she hadn't been there at all, then none of this would've happened. However, she was present and her life was lost by the inappropriate way that the agents, particularly Ross, acted. It caused death; a death which was entirely unnecessary.

Take the car reg, let her leave if that's what she wants, then apprehend her later in a calmer, more controlled environment., then charge her, if considered appropriate.

To me, I'm thinking that, in my own country, I'd want all policing to be accountable. Once officers are given automatic immunity, no matter what they do, it's a danger signal to our civil liberties and safety. Would you want our police force to have absolute immunity?

Perhaps you do.

I've previously answered all this dude.

Your contentions aren't mine and I can't be bothered to write it all out again.

 

[Stirlingsays]

My final contribution to this topic is that...both were at fault. The ice officer was quick to draw his gun and the woman equally for dangerous driving and obstructing the law enforcement.

A tragedy all round and one that could have been prevented. The woman's family have to live with it and likewise so to does the ice officer and his family.

I hope that is fair enough and meets you half way?

In Britain certainly.

However, disobeying law enforcement comes with the possibility of worse consequences in the US.

Their laws, not ours.

Considering the changing demographics as we go forward I'm not so sure that gun ownership is such a bad idea myself. They have lowered social cohesion and that means less trust within communities.

This country should be the shire outside of the cities but the traitors that are our elites have decided against that.

 

[Bassak]

All answered in my post. Did you actually read it?

This feels like pushing s*** up hill backwards.

From your post

Yes, not getting out of the car when asked has proved to be a fatal error and, certainly, if she hadn't been there at all, then none of this would've happened. However, she was present and her life was lost by the inappropriate way that the agents, particularly Ross, acted. It caused death; a death which was entirely unnecessary.

Do you not think that she may well have got out of the car until her wife told her to drive drive, so do you not think her wife has a lot to answer for as well as the agent.

 

[Glazier#1]

My final contribution to this topic is that...both were at fault. The ice officer was quick to draw his gun and the woman equally for dangerous driving and obstructing the law enforcement.

A tragedy all round and one that could have been prevented. The woman's family have to live with it and likewise so to does the ice officer and his family.

I hope that is fair enough and meets you half way?

Well, I do disagree with you, Eaglesdare (not driving dangerously at all) but thank you for your conciliatory tone, which is a relief in this bully shop. I appreciate it.

Now I expect Spite to come on and call me a liar lol.

 

[Glazier#1]

From your post

Yes, not getting out of the car when asked has proved to be a fatal error and, certainly, if she hadn't been there at all, then none of this would've happened. However, she was present and her life was lost by the inappropriate way that the agents, particularly Ross, acted. It caused death; a death which was entirely unnecessary.

Do you not think that she may well have got out of the car until her wife told her to drive drive, so do you not think her wife has a lot to answer for as well as the agent.

Well, I'd say that advice was stupid, in all honesty. I'm sure that this will be running around her head non-stop.

However, I will maintain that this was the unnecessary action of a traumatised, under-trained agent and it's this, finally, that turned this into a mourning. So tragic.

Yet I'm sure there are many spitting out: "She deserved it!"

 

[Stirlingsays]

Regardless of what anyone thinks of it nothing will happen here as Trump needs ICE working without fear.

This agency have been shot at and attacked by progressives and by letting in millions Biden's administration are responsible for Trump's ICE enlargement and emboldening.

Privately I think Trump is just looking for an excuse to smash.....and I think the Democrats are well aware of it.

 

[Glazier#1]

Regardless of what anyone thinks of it nothing will happen here as Trump needs ICE working without fear.

This agency have been shot at and attacked by progressives and by letting in millions Biden's administration are responsible for Trump's ICE enlargement and emboldening.

Privately I think Trump is just looking for an excuse to smash.....and I think the Democrats are well aware of it.

Yes indeed. As are many of his cohort. Seen as necessary for the greater good.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Yes indeed. Any are many of his cohort. Seen as necessary for the greater good.

Unfortunately that's where we are.

 

[Houston Eagle]

Well, I do disagree with you, Eaglesdare (not driving dangerously at all) but thank you for your conciliatory tone, which is a relief in this bully shop. I appreciate it.

Now I expect Spite to come on and call me a liar lol.

Everything is somewhat subjectives as no one truly knows the intent of both parties at that particular moment.

A couple of points I feel are relevant.

The working environment for federal agents is extremely difficult and dangerous.

This officer had been “attacked” by a moving vehicle before and received significant injuries. Not life threatening that time but could have been. How might anyone react next time when faced with similar circumstances?

The woman parked her car there for a reason. Why? I’m assuming it was for confrontational purposes?

Her “wife” was out of the car mouthing off with a camera looking for a reaction and social media content?

The “wife” was returning to the car to get in when the woman decided to drive off. Why did she not wait for her wife to get in?

This is tragic for all concerned and could have been easily avoided. Some will blame Trump because they don’t like him or his policies. Some will blame the federal agents because he’s enforcing the laws they disagree with and some will blame the woman as her actions directly started the sequence of events.

The world and how we see it is so polarized that compromise and concession is rarely possible.

I’m sure these words will resonate with some but anger others.

 

[HKOwen]

Regardless of what anyone thinks of it nothing will happen here as Trump needs ICE working without fear.

This agency have been shot at and attacked by progressives and by letting in millions Biden's administration are responsible for Trump's ICE enlargement and emboldening.

Privately I think Trump is just looking for an excuse to smash.....and I think the Democrats are well aware of it.

The relatives of the thousands of dead fentanyl victims like ICE

 

[Glazier#1]

Everything is somewhat subjectives as no one truly knows the intent of both parties at that particular moment.

A couple of points I feel are relevant.

The working environment for federal agents is extremely difficult and dangerous.

This officer had been “attacked” by a moving vehicle before and received significant injuries. Not life threatening that time but could have been. How might anyone react next time when faced with similar circumstances?

The woman parked her car there for a reason. Why? I’m assuming it was for confrontational purposes?

Her “wife” was out of the car mouthing off with a camera looking for a reaction and social media content?

The “wife” was returning to the car to get in when the woman decided to drive off. Why did she not wait for her wife to get in?

This is tragic for all concerned and could have been easily avoided. Some will blame Trump because they don’t like him or his policies. Some will blame the federal agents because he’s enforcing the laws they disagree with and some will blame the woman as her actions directly started the sequence of events.

The world and how we see it is so polarized that compromise and concession is rarely possible.

I’m sure these words will resonate with some but anger others.

It's not 'anyone', is it? It's government agents. They surely should be properly trained for and deployed correctly during events like this. I believe I dealt with this point in my post. I'm not sure if you've read but it is does deal specifically with the points you are making. No?

And some would say that, regardless of one's politics, automatic immunity is just dangerous. The widespread discussion and contention over all of it shows that it needs to be properly investigated: for all our sakes.

 

[cryrst]

If that was my mrs pushing my kid in a buggy the only thing I would be thinking about is pulling them out of the way. Then I would want to know why she was in the road. Dealing with the driver, if any was required, can wait.

What if the driver deliberately aimed for the buggy and your mrs then. As happened here. Would you still be so willing to have a chat after your Mrs explained she was crossing the road !

 

[Houston Eagle]

It's not 'anyone', is it? It's government agents. They surely should be properly trained for and deployed correctly during events like this. I believe I dealt with this point in my post. I'm not sure if you've read but it is does deal specifically with the points you are making. No?

And some would say that, regardless of one's politics, automatic immunity is just dangerous. The widespread discussion and contention over all of it shows that it needs to be properly investigated: for all our sakes.

A woman was killed and that certainly warrants a proper investigation. The proximity of all concerned makes it a split-second decision.

What is the protocol for responding to people who repeatedly don't follow law enforcement requests. There is no room for step aside policing in the US when faced with these circumstances as the risk to personal injury or worse is very high indeed.

Did he have time to "dodge the car? Could he have let the vehicle pass and shot from behind in a more controlled manner. Should he have just let the woman go on her way and followed up in later?

It's a sad day now that the body camera is a necessary tool to determine the truth of any specific circumstance and as we have seen in this forum there is still massive differences in interpretation. I'm 100% behind law enforcement/federal agents but agree blanket immunity if that is correct is not reasonable under any circumstances.