Sage in or out

[RedandBlueSash]

Yep me too.
Arguably our 5 best players in the last year or so, herderson, Munoz, Lacoix , Mateta and Sarr haven’t been available to him, for differing reasons.
Glasner wouldn’t have done any better without them.
A win and a loss in the Europa.
Doing well in the league cup.
Around where we normally are in the league.
I’d give him til Christmas, unless the form nosedives dramatically.
And yes I know we was fairly lucky in a couple of games, but we’ve been unlucky in 3.

Agree with everything you say.

Also, the problem is basic defending. Changing a system or formation does not magically confer the ability to defend a cross to the back stick ( which we could not do against Forest ) or stop the several stupid and individual defensive errors we've committed over the last few games.

It's been inexperience and a defensive unit unfamiliar with each other have cost us. Khalaili, Canvot and Anahor have all f***ed up more than once and Disasi got himself sent off. We lost Riad's savvy and experience early on. We badly need Tomiyasu fit.

It could be argued Sage has been let down by the board. Instead of spending big on a more established defender, we speculated on youth and it has not worked out so far. It may do, in time.

Going four at the back might shore up the midfield but the mistakes made by the players mentioned above can happen in any system. We would still be stuck with a defence playing like strangers with each other, lacking experience and increasingly lacking confidence.

Firing Sage does nothing to fix the issues above. What he offers is a clear improvement in how we move the ball through the thirds and get the best out of players other than Mateta and Sarr. He offers a chance for us to evolve as an attacking team. We are scoring well without our two biggest scorers of the last few years. That bears pointing out. Glasner without Mateta and Sarr? Forget it.

This is not FDB Mk II. We are hardly bottom of the table and without a win or even a goal. We are not at crisis point, merely bruised after losing horribly against the last team we would want to. But most of our recent seasons have had a 'Dunkirk moment' like this one.

Only more time drilling and playing together will get the defence settled and that will not magically improve under any new manager. Pulis-ball wouldn't work! There's no Delaney, Jedinak or Dann-type players who are superb in the air! Short of giving time and reinforcements in January, I can't see how we fix the defence quickly. This is a team issue. Any new manager would have the same issues.

We have to adapt but I'm not sure firing the manager is the solution. It won't fix the present and might deprive us of a better future.

 

[Willo]

I'm on the fence, but leaning more towards giving Sage more time and support.

That is not because I have any strong reason to believe in Sage, though. It's because sacking the manager must always be the last resort when other options have been exhausted. Club stability is key, as is a clear and consistent message to the players, their agents, and the media that the board, Parish, Hobbs and the coach are all together as one, and that the players can't separate them and play one off against the other if they happen to dislike a particular manager. We see that so often at other clubs. Player power, sulking, division then, inevitably, collapse. No thanks.

I'd give Sage more time, but expect him to do things differently. His methods are poorly suited to the circumstances (which are not of his making) if they are even capable of working at all. That doesn't necessarily mean he has to tear up every single thing he believes in. I remain torn between (on one hand) knowing that we've never, ever seen a front-foot, attack minded Palace team do well in the premier league and (on the other hand) seeing other teams like Bournemouth do it.

I'm not against a more front-foot manager. If the end result of all this is that Palace win and lose games 3-2 instead of 1-0 on the way to finishing 12th again, then I'm fine with that. That is absolutely not what is happening, though. We have failed to score in more than half of our league games. There is no single part of the current approach that seems promising.

Regarding Sage's almost religious faith in the 343 system, I actually don't mind a bit of tactical inflexibility. To me, there is as much to be said for consistency and clarity as there is for flexibility and adaptability. If he had changed between systems in his games so far, we would all be moaning that he doesn't know his best team and formation, and should nail one down and given it a chance to work. In this case, though, Sage really does have to go back to the drawing board.

As to what Parish may do: Going back, I thought Pardew was very unlucky to be sacked (to the point it seemed unjust), and had similar feelings when Vieira got the bullet. They both had loads more time than Sage, of course, and form and results had tailed off, but I just felt both managers had shown enough previously to assure me they would fix it. They had both been able to put together viable premier league Palace teams for sustained periods. Sage doesn't have that credit in the bank. I don't know that he can produce a stable team at Palace, and what little evidence there is doesn't go in his favour.

At least give him the chance to change, though.

Pardew : We were 17th in the PL after 17 games and had lost 8 of his previous 10 games when he departed.We conceded 25 goals in those 10 games.

Vieira : We were 12th in the PL after 27 games and recorded no wins in his previous 11 PL games.We scored 4 goals in those 11 games.If one takes account the FA Cup this figure stretches to 12 after a 2-1 home defeat to Southampton.There were also issues behind the scenes regarding coaching staff.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

Pardew : We were 17th in the PL after 17 games and had lost 8 of his previous 10 games when he departed.We conceded 25 goals in those 10 games.

Vieira : We were 12th in the PL after 27 games and recorded no wins in his previous 11 PL games.We scored 4 goals in those 11 games.If one takes account the FA Cup this figure stretches to 12 after a 2-1 home defeat to Southampton.

Yes, and fair enough, but what were the best runs of results and performances under those same managers? Pardew had us in the top 5 at one point, and Vieira had us safely in midtable playing some good stuff on the way to an FA Cup semi final.

In other words, the managers responsible for those poor runs (to the extent that managers are responsible alone) were also evidently capable of good runs in the same league with the same players.

We can't say that about Sage.

 

[Willo]

Yes, and fair enough, but what were the best runs of results and performances under those same managers? Pardew had us in the top 5 at one point, and Vieira had us safely in midtable playing some good stuff on the way to an FA Cup semi final.

In other words, the managers responsible for those poor runs (to the extent that managers are responsible alone) were also evidently capable of good runs in the same league with the same players.

We can't say that about Sage.

We have only played 10 games under Sage (All competitions) and I for one was not expecting a 'Good run' in his first 10 games at the helm.

 

[Save Dwindlehurst]

I somehow doubt there is an overall anticipation amongst our supporters that we will beat a free-scoring Besiktas in Istanbul.
Newcastle have lost their last 2 Away games 4-1 but we play them 3 days after returning from Turkey and I suspect our fan base are fearful of yet another defeat based on our frailties.

Besiktas have scored a few goals in 7 games in a very poor Turkish League.I still think we’ll win there.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

We have only played 10 games under Sage (All competitions) and I for one was not expecting a 'Good run' in his first 10 games at the helm.

Again, fair enough, but do you have any evidence based on previous experience of Sage that he is likely to engineer a good run, or even stability?

I would argue that its impossible to confidently say he will produce a capable premier league team as he hasn't shown he can do that before. That is true of anyone new to the league, of course, but it does weigh against Sage in a way it didn't weigh against Pardew and Vieira.

We knew those other two were at least capable of putting together a decent side. We just hope that Sage is.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

This is a question that will answer itself depending on coming results. With the huge pressure not to be relegated, a poor run over the next handful of games will see Sage out the door. It's probably unfair given the circumstances, but fair ain't in it.

The wider question is, can this squad perform better under another manager, or will the endless sale of our best players finally be our undoing?

How much money can we spend to bolster the squad in January and will the necessary players be available or want to sign for a struggling team?

 

[Canterbury Palace]

3-4-2-1 is an absolutely awful system, it is impossible to play consistently, if was any good all the top teams would be playing it, and they don't, it has to change to a back 4, if Sage cant do that, sack him, after all 4-4-2 was Gleasner's favourite formation 🤣, change or die.

I agree. If we have a lack of top quality central defenders then it seems obvious to play a formation that doesn't require as many. It would suit Mitchell who is naturally defensive and would stop Khalaili getting caught out of position.

It would mean we could have Wharton, Kamada and Timber in midfield as well to hopefully get greater control in that area.

 

[PatFromSouthCarolina]

According to The Athletic, Sage will be given thyme.

Settle up that back 3, get Hendo back, Sarr’s head right, and Mateta healthy, and see where that leaves us come year end. If we’re above water come January, and have a good transfer window, things could look up.

I realize that’s asking a lot….

 

[JessieJ]

Glancing at the current results of the poll I am surprised that there are so relatively few on the "sit on the fence" branch. I am one of those. Am I confident that Sage will come up with a plan to make us more solid while developing us into a more free-flowing attacking outfit? No. I have seen no evidence to date. Therefore, sack him and his coaches? And replace with who? Based upon many opinions here Sage has no PL experience, the inference being, only somebody with that experience will suffice. So, again, who? Without going into detail Howe, Dyche, McKenna, Frank. Take your pick. None of them fill me with enthusiasm unless one takes the Frank/Brentford combo and bring that scenario. Trouble is, it took him some windows building his squad to be most effective and we are only 7 matches in. Firing the bullet so early is not usually the right move although it did work out with FdB. Any new trainer would still have the same players that's the crux of the problem more than the system imho. If we can keep to a point per match up to the next break then maybe (more in hope than expectation) things will settle down. On the assumption that there will be a "what's going on" meeting in the upper echelons of the HQ today I'd love to be a fly on the wall. I wonder what's going on the Sunderland, Newcastle and even Bournemouth forums given the state of play.

 

[Willo]

According to The Athletic, Sage will be given thyme.

Settle up that back 3, get Hendo back, Sarr’s head right, and Mateta healthy, and see where that leaves us come year end. If we’re above water come January, and have a good transfer window, things could look up.

I realize that’s asking a lot….

I have no indication that his departure is imminent.

 

[Willo]

Glancing at the current results of the poll I am surprised that there are so relatively few on the "sit on the fence" branch. I am one of those. Am I confident that Sage will come up with a plan to make us more solid while developing us into a more free-flowing attacking outfit? No. I have seen no evidence to date. Therefore, sack him and his coaches? And replace with who? Based upon many opinions here Sage has no PL experience, the inference being, only somebody with that experience will suffice. So, again, who? Without going into detail Howe, Dyche, McKenna, Frank. Take your pick. None of them fill me with enthusiasm unless one takes the Frank/Brentford combo and bring that scenario. Trouble is, it took him some windows building his squad to be most effective and we are only 7 matches in. Firing the bullet so early is not usually the right move although it did work out with FdB. Any new trainer would still have the same players that's the crux of the problem more than the system imho. If we can keep to a point per match up to the next break then maybe (more in hope than expectation) things will settle down. On the assumption that there will be a "what's going on" meeting in the upper echelons of the HQ today I'd love to be a fly on the wall. I wonder what's going on the Sunderland, Newcastle and even Bournemouth forums given the state of play.

Thomas Frank lost 8 of his first 10 games in charge at Brentford after he succeeded Dean Smith.

 

[eaglesdare]

According to The Athletic, Sage will be given thyme.

Settle up that back 3, get Hendo back, Sarr’s head right, and Mateta healthy, and see where that leaves us come year end. If we’re above water come January, and have a good transfer window, things could look up.

I realize that’s asking a lot….

Any kind of relegation threat we do generally have a good January transfer window.

Like you say keep our head above water, even get through the group stages in Europe then we can have a good traditional second half to the season.

 

[JHB]

Agree with everything you say.

Also, the problem is basic defending. Changing a system or formation does not magically confer the ability to defend a cross to the back stick ( which we could not do against Forest ) or stop the several stupid and individual defensive errors we've committed over the last few games.

It's been inexperience and a defensive unit unfamiliar with each other have cost us. Khalaili, Canvot and Anahor have all f***ed up more than once and Disasi got himself sent off. We lost Riad's savvy and experience early on. We badly need Tomiyasu fit.

It could be argued Sage has been let down by the board. Instead of spending big on a more established defender, we speculated on youth and it has not worked out so far. It may do, in time.

Going four at the back might shore up the midfield but the mistakes made by the players mentioned above can happen in any system. We would still be stuck with a defence playing like strangers with each other, lacking experience and increasingly lacking confidence.

Firing Sage does nothing to fix the issues above. What he offers is a clear improvement in how we move the ball through the thirds and get the best out of players other than Mateta and Sarr. He offers a chance for us to evolve as an attacking team. We are scoring well without our two biggest scorers of the last few years. That bears pointing out. Glasner without Mateta and Sarr? Forget it.

This is not FDB Mk II. We are hardly bottom of the table and without a win or even a goal. We are not at crisis point, merely bruised after losing horribly against the last team we would want to. But most of our recent seasons have had a 'Dunkirk moment' like this one.

Only more time drilling and playing together will get the defence settled and that will not magically improve under any new manager. Pulis-ball wouldn't work! There's no Delaney, Jedinak or Dann-type players who are superb in the air! Short of giving time and reinforcements in January, I can't see how we fix the defence quickly. This is a team issue. Any new manager would have the same issues.

We have to adapt but I'm not sure firing the manager is the solution. It won't fix the present and might deprive us of a better future.

That presumably a different Riad to the one that has played 35 first team games in the last 6 years and 11 first team games since he joined us over two years ago?

Doesn’t necessarily distract from the broader point you make but Riad is still potential and injury rather than an experienced and proven premier league centre half.

 

[PalazioVecchio]

Keep Mr Sage.

Sack 33% of the squad.

 

[DANGERCLOSE]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2112162431619285040

 

[SnapperKain]

I'd give him till the end of November, so if he's gone at that point we've got time for the new person to see the squad and use the January transfer window.

I've been trying to decide if it's our tactics, the quality of the players, Sage's motivational skills or the quality of coaching and it's all of them. As a fan, you sort of want to feel a connection to the manager, to listen to the pre and post match interviews and get an idea of where they're coming from and I get nothing from Sage at all. Just comes across incredibly dour, and that has to filter down to team talks, tactics, etc. I can't see him giving a rousing speech in the dressing room on Sunday before the game, trying to put a bit of fire into players who don't really give a sh!t about our rivalry. Only person who seemed fired up on the coaching staff was Paddy.

We've been found out with our tactics as well. As others have mentioned, having our wingbacks so far up the pitch leaves us totally exposed when the ball gets turned around. Mitchell was stranded so many times on Sunday and then the ball didn't even come out to him. You'd think with the fullbacks playing essentially in midfield that we'd dominate in that area, but we're overrun in midfield every game. Just takes their midfielders to sit in our channels, overturn the ball and knock it forward to a grateful front line, who know our defence are flat footed and couldn't accelerate fast enough to catch up to someone on crutches. The system worked when we had someone speedy like Lacroix or someone who could ready a game like Guehi, but we have two CB's who should be on the bench with their prem experience in Canvot and Ahanor. They're not up to speed with the game and end up ball watching half the time.

The lack of replacment for Lacroix is such a balls up. I know one of our targets did his ACL I think and another bumped up the price at the end of the deal, but we had enough notice as I think Lacroix told us he wanted to leave before the end of last season. I don't rate Hobbs at all. That Johnson debarcle was embarrassing and as much as I like JSL as a person, I still don't rate him. Most of our moves break down when it gets to him as his first touch can be awful or he tries to pass it and it's just completely inaccurate.

It might just take a couple of savvy defensive signings in the January transfer window to sort this out, but I'm not sure that Sage will get that time the way it's going.

 

[park the bus]

Glancing at the current results of the poll I am surprised that there are so relatively few on the "sit on the fence" branch. I am one of those. Am I confident that Sage will come up with a plan to make us more solid while developing us into a more free-flowing attacking outfit? No. I have seen no evidence to date. Therefore, sack him and his coaches? And replace with who? Based upon many opinions here Sage has no PL experience, the inference being, only somebody with that experience will suffice. So, again, who? Without going into detail Howe, Dyche, McKenna, Frank. Take your pick. None of them fill me with enthusiasm unless one takes the Frank/Brentford combo and bring that scenario. Trouble is, it took him some windows building his squad to be most effective and we are only 7 matches in. Firing the bullet so early is not usually the right move although it did work out with FdB. Any new trainer would still have the same players that's the crux of the problem more than the system imho. If we can keep to a point per match up to the next break then maybe (more in hope than expectation) things will settle down. On the assumption that there will be a "what's going on" meeting in the upper echelons of the HQ today I'd love to be a fly on the wall. I wonder what's going on the Sunderland, Newcastle and even Bournemouth forums given the state of play.

I voted "in" because there isn't a "give him 3 more games" option, which is where my thoughts lay. Forget Europe, upcoming Prem games are Newcastle, Fulham, and Spurs; all fellow strugglers and if we can't pick up some crucial points from these games and repeat the same errors as witnessed thus far then I would say Sage's days are numbered. His tenure depends on getting points on the board, it really is as simple as that - if he can't do it then someone else will be given the opportunity.

 

[JHB]

I'd give him till the end of November, so if he's gone at that point we've got time for the new person to see the squad and use the January transfer window.

I've been trying to decide if it's our tactics, the quality of the players, Sage's motivational skills or the quality of coaching and it's all of them. As a fan, you sort of want to feel a connection to the manager, to listen to the pre and post match interviews and get an idea of where they're coming from and I get nothing from Sage at all. Just comes across incredibly dour, and that has to filter down to team talks, tactics, etc. I can't see him giving a rousing speech in the dressing room on Sunday before the game, trying to put a bit of fire into players who don't really give a sh!t about our rivalry. Only person who seemed fired up on the coaching staff was Paddy.

We've been found out with our tactics as well. As others have mentioned, having our wingbacks so far up the pitch leaves us totally exposed when the ball gets turned around. Mitchell was stranded so many times on Sunday and then the ball didn't even come out to him. You'd think with the fullbacks playing essentially in midfield that we'd dominate in that area, but we're overrun in midfield every game. Just takes their midfielders to sit in our channels, overturn the ball and knock it forward to a grateful front line, who know our defence are flat footed and couldn't accelerate fast enough to catch up to someone on crutches. The system worked when we had someone speedy like Lacroix or someone who could ready a game like Guehi, but we have two CB's who should be on the bench with their prem experience in Canvot and Ahanor. They're not up to speed with the game and end up ball watching half the time.

The lack of replacment for Lacroix is such a balls up. I know one of our targets did his ACL I think and another bumped up the price at the end of the deal, but we had enough notice as I think Lacroix told us he wanted to leave before the end of last season. I don't rate Hobbs at all. That Johnson debarcle was embarrassing and as much as I like JSL as a person, I still don't rate him. Most of our moves break down when it gets to him as his first touch can be awful or he tries to pass it and it's just completely inaccurate.

It might just take a couple of savvy defensive signings in the January transfer window to sort this out, but I'm not sure that Sage will get that time the way it's going.

No doubt any system works better with better players. However, I don’t think it is the same system. It’s the same formation on paper but definitely a different system.

Under Glasner we played as a back five when we didn’t have the ball and the midfield were much closer to the centre halves. We relied on little possession, playing on the break and strong hold up play. It was heavily dependant on Munoz’s energy to get up and get back, Kamada doing the work of two in midfield and peak JPM where ha was a huge handful for the opposition on his own. When those elements faltered it was dour and Glasner didn’t have a plan B.

Under Sage it’s the opposite. We play the wingbacks high up all the time, relying on a back three. The midfield is pushed up and we are trying to turn the ball over and attack with numbers. Issue is it isn’t working.

 

[JHB]

I voted "in" because there isn't a "give him 3 more games" option, which is where my thoughts lay. Forget Europe, upcoming Prem games are Newcastle, Fulham, and Spurs; all fellow strugglers and if we can't pick up some crucial points from these games and repeat the same errors as witnessed thus far then I would say Sage's days are numbered. His tenure depends on getting points on the board, it really is as simple as that - if he can't do it then someone else will be given the opportunity.

Newcastle and Spurs will decide it. Lose both of those and he’s done. Draw them conceding 3 goals in each and he’s gone. Win one of them and he may cling on. Then comes Liverpool. They could easily run up a cricket score if we defend as we are. If that happens he may be gone anyway. In short Sage can’t afford anymore really bad performances or results. He has no credit left in the bank