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Spindle said:
So his s*** doesn't stink, forgiveness in you is there, and I'm certain that you should equal graciousness to similar situations in other parties?

I put it down to him being out of his depth, at least he's not so stupid as to not know it.
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Yes. Because unlike most resignations so far nothing as come out as to why. Normally we get an MP saying he wants to spend more time with his family when we all know it's because he has done something wrong.

It will eventually come out and then I may change my mind but for now we have nothing to go on.
 
Spindle said:
.....the imagination and unicorn covered uplands still runs strong.....

Perhaps you can remind me why they need us so badly in a military sense? What exactly have we got that they need? Just checking I've not got it wrong before I pile in with a huge list of weapons and systems that EU nations have and we do not........
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Who is supplying weapons to the Ukraine. Britain and France have been the leading military powers in post war Europe. I don't see the Irish or even Spain steeping up and replacing the UK.

I'm actually quite happy to keep out of it but because we have such a big arms industry the government is having it's arm twisted by the manufacturers.
 
Stirlingsays said:
I think you have a point really.....forty years ago we were a serious military force in the world but ever since defence review after defence review, Tory or Labour have reduced our military down to essentially a reaction force and nothing that could actually fight a war lasting more than a few weeks.

Having said that what we do have is an economy, that while it's no great shakes is in European terms in the top three in Europe.

That's why they want us.
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Our military is obviously not what it was but unlike other countries are politicians seem prepared to use it. How reliable will France's EU allies be if and when they are called on?
 
Badger11 said:
Our military is obviously not what it was but unlike other countries are politicians seem prepared to use it. How reliable will France's EU allies be if and when they are called on?
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I essentially agree with your point on Ukraine.....it's not our war and not worth a drop of our blood.

However the liberal leaders in Europe consider Russia an ideological threat and have already sunk so much money and burnt bridges so much (including allowing cheap gas supply to Europe to be blown up) that they can't stop digging the hole.....If they take collective responsibility then no one's going to hold them to account.....Exactly the same way they avoid accountability over covid.

They have fecked up pretty much everything and they want to convince us that putting our troops into that zone that could erupt at any point makes sense.

If Russia leaves Ukraine as anything other than a rump state then they know that once they have recovered their strength they will try to recover their lands and war starts again.......Ukraine and these politicians would love having our troops in the thick of that.....they want the opportunity to build up.

All for a war that has zero gain for us and that we have spent billions on already.

If the right were in charge in Europe this wouldn't be happening.....but these guys are using corrupt legal systems to stop the right wing all over Europe and subvert democracy as much as they can.
 
Badger11 said:
Our military is obviously not what it was but unlike other countries are politicians seem prepared to use it. How reliable will France's EU allies be if and when they are called on?
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Poland will be one of the strongest these days. Britain will still be the strongest naval power, and likely the RAF is the strongest air force. Although you'd be surprised who wins all the jet fighting competitions - I believe it's Greece.
 
ASCPFC said:
Poland will be one of the strongest these days. Britain will still be the strongest naval power, and likely the RAF is the strongest air force. Although you'd be surprised who wins all the jet fighting competitions - I believe it's Greece.
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Agreed. The question is though how reliable are some of France’s EU allies?

Will Poland involve it's self if it's not a direct threat to the country? Greece isn't known for participating much in foreign conflicts.

It maybe that the EU countries have had a sea change of opinion.

However if I was France I would look around and conclude that the only other country who has been a reliable military ally since WW2 is us, so why try and extort money from us.
 
Stirlingsays said:
I essentially agree with your point on Ukraine.....it's not our war and not worth a drop of our blood.

However the liberal leaders in Europe consider Russia an ideological threat and have already sunk so much money and burnt bridges so much (including allowing cheap gas supply to Europe to be blown up) that they can't stop digging the hole.....If they take collective responsibility then no one's going to hold them to account.....Exactly the same way they avoid accountability over covid.

They have fecked up pretty much everything and they want to convince us that putting our troops into that zone that could erupt at any point makes sense.

If Russia leaves Ukraine as anything other than a rump state then they know that once they have recovered their strength they will try to recover their lands and war starts again.......Ukraine and these politicians would love having our troops in the thick of that.....they want the opportunity to build up.

All for a war that has zero gain for us and that we have spent billions on already.

If the right were in charge in Europe this wouldn't be happening.....but these guys are using corrupt legal systems to stop the right wing all over Europe and subvert democracy as much as they can.
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Many of us believe it is our war. Not yet maybe but if it is lost in a way that allows the Russians to rebuild and break another agreement then it could be.

Churchill knew that action postponed inevitably made things harder. Action today was his bye word and it’s as true today.

No one much cares about an ideological threat. It’s only the right who get wound up by ideology. Most of us worry about a physical threat.

We haven’t got too many front line troops to put into the mix, even if we wanted to. We, and our allies, do though have the technology that can make the difference and it seems that wars these days are won and lost via technology.

If the right were in charge in Europe they would be appeasing Putin alongside Trump. There’s a much greater ideological alignment between Putin and the western right than there’s differences. I don’t care what Putin does in Russia. It’s up to the Russians to sort that out. I don’t though want our right opening the door here. By here I don’t mean just the UK. I mean in democratic Europe of which we are part
 
ASCPFC said:
Yes, you're right. Europe has never needed Britain before. Why bother starting now?
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Are you one of those who thinks Britain won WW2 alone? Lol. Also, that was 80 years ago....

I'm still waiting for an answer to the point I actually did raise.
 
ASCPFC said:
Poland will be one of the strongest these days. Britain will still be the strongest naval power, and likely the RAF is the strongest air force. Although you'd be surprised who wins all the jet fighting competitions - I believe it's Greece.
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Red Flag events are trials of situations and are in visual range, they aren't BVR. There are many factors in air dominance that aren't tested by these events and they shouldn't be taken as a guide on who is best whatsoever.
 
Spindle said:
Are you one of those who thinks Britain won WW2 alone? Lol. Also, that was 80 years ago....

I'm still waiting for an answer to the point I actually did raise.
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If that was what do we have that the EU needs I believe I have answered it.

Just look at the history of the individual EU countries from the last 50 years. Most have not wanted to involve themselves in military operations, France and the UK have been head and shoulders above the rest. That may now change but if I was France I would not be pissing off the only reliable ally.

Poland is now the strongest EU country but theirs is an immediate concern to defend their own borders from Russia. Will they want to get involved in other potential conflicts? Poland are the new bad boys of the EU constantly disagreeing with EU policy so does that make them a reliable ally?
 
Badger11 said:
Who is supplying weapons to the Ukraine. Britain and France have been the leading military powers in post war Europe. I don't see the Irish or even Spain steeping up and replacing the UK.

I'm actually quite happy to keep out of it but because we have such a big arms industry the government is having it's arm twisted by the manufacturers.
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Nobody replaces anyone, and I'm not convinced you understand what is meant by donating and the costs of it, ie how it's calculated.

And even if you took those figures, the UK is lagging behind, per capita, Denmark the biggest donors by far. Are they one of the countries you don't think ever gets involved?

And what makes you think we're so big at arms? France is far bigger, even Germany and Italy are bigger exporters.

It's a typical brexshit over inflated view of ourselves isn't it.
 
Spindle said:
Nobody replaces anyone, and I'm not convinced you understand what is meant by donating and the costs of it, ie how it's calculated.

And even if you took those figures, the UK is lagging behind, per capita, Denmark the biggest donors by far. Are they one of the countries you don't think ever gets involved?
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The Danes have been more reliable that most.

You assume I am being jingoistic I'm not I would prefer we keep away from the EU defence policy entirely. Starmer is getting involved because of the armaments industry in the UK saying they want a piece of the EU defence budget.

My own preference is for the UK to take a case by case position if and when required and not get involved in European broils unless it is in Britain’s interest.
 
What? You want to be isolated in ours arms industry? Can you name the crucial modern weapons that we make, for export or not, that don't require involvement from other nations.
 
Spindle said:
Nobody replaces anyone, and I'm not convinced you understand what is meant by donating and the costs of it, ie how it's calculated.

And even if you took those figures, the UK is lagging behind, per capita, Denmark the biggest donors by far. Are they one of the countries you don't think ever gets involved?

And what makes you think we're so big at arms? France is far bigger, even Germany and Italy are bigger exporters.

It's a typical brexshit over inflated view of ourselves isn't it.
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That Brexit you complain about has just enabled us to two trade deals that the EU will struggle with...especially with the US on as good a deal. That could have been us.

Also, I'll remind you that Germany is in recession and that on the democratic and freedom front the EU allows its members to cancel democratic elections, ban politicians from elections and label right wing parties as extremists so that their security services can harass them.....But if you're Hungary and disagree with a position on someone else's war, they will cut your funding and punish you.
 
Spindle said:
What? You want to be isolated in ours arms industry? Can you name the crucial modern weapons that we make, for export or not, that don't require involvement from other nations.
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I would rather not have an arms industry. The taxpayers spends a fortunate on it money I would rather go elsewhere. Other countries seem to have a better balance between defending themselves and getting involved. We should not be the policeman of the world we gave up that role after WW2.
 
Spindle said:
Are you one of those who thinks Britain won WW2 alone? Lol. Also, that was 80 years ago....

I'm still waiting for an answer to the point I actually did raise.
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Britain has nearly 700 front line jets, two aircraft carriers, 2 squadrons of nuclear submarines. Does someone else in Europe have that?
Britain and France are the only two European countries to have the ability to project power abroad in any sense.
Britain's ground forces have been cut but they are still large enough to send 20,000 well trained troops abroad and support and supply them.
Again, unlikely any European power could do that.
I believe Poland has the largest ground forces, but it would be loads of ex Soviet stuff.
What exactly does Britain really need from Europe? Any of the systems Britain could make with Bae or Vickers - or equivalent.
You just want to knock Britain for some reason as being weak.
There was a VE day celebration - did you not notice? Lol.
You're the one that plays a game aren't you? It doesn't make you anything of an expert at all. Quite the opposite
 
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