Reform

[ASCPFC]

Of course but we can’t, can we! I’m sure the French residents do not want 1000s hanging around their area, perhaps the French should grow some and round them up and detain in proper camps. When Sangatte closed and we agreed to take many of the “residents” it was agreed by the French that no similar encampments would be allowed 🤔 we were in the EU then but they did nothing to stop another one appearing.
Having worked at Sangatte processing many, believe me you really wouldn’t want them living near you. The abuse we got was off the scale, perhaps it was just their way of showing thanks 😏

Tens of thousands go to Ireland. Something like 87% of our illegal immigrants come from Northern Ireland. When that trouble happened up there, there were immediately thousands.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Anyone who believes this....chap....and how he represents himself should go back onto the old forum and check out what he actually wrote those years ago....all establishment defence.

I remember and you repulsed me.

You deserve all the criticism you get.

You obviously DON’T remember. You only recall what your prejudices told you then, and again now.

As anyone going back to the old forum and checking for themselves would see very clearly. I don’t need to check! I know what I thought then and do now.

Your “repulsion” is entirely as a consequence of your own attitudes and has no basis whatsoever in reality. This being explained to you on numerous occasions with no change from you as a consequence. You made up your mind and decided you knew what I thought, and why, better than I do.

Describing you as a brick wall would flatter you. Brick walls don’t try to pollute the minds of others.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

It doesn't suggest anything except the will is not there to do it. It is exactly that simple. There are plenty of very simple solutions to things our governments don't do.
Giving nothing at all to illegal immigrants is one. The outcome is chosen by the individual here. It is the very epitome of not our problem.

As one of the more reasonable posters here I am surprised by this comment.

If simple solutions actually existed then they would be immediately seized and used. The political capital gained would be priceless.

So, whilst things might appear as obvious to us, they just cannot be in reality or they would have been used.

 

[ASCPFC]

As one of the more reasonable posters here I am surprised by this comment.

If simple solutions actually existed then they would be immediately seized and used. The political capital gained would be priceless.

So, whilst things might appear as obvious to us, they just cannot be in reality or they would have been used.

You're misjudging the political capital. Loads would be horrified that we wouldn't just let everyone in and give them stuff. And they would be vocal. Common sense and reasoned people are very much in the minority these days.
We love to push extremes and then wonder why more or less everyone is fed up with it. We pander to the fringes as they protest the most. Or worse than that in certain cases.

 

[silvertop]

I think you are correct. As I have said many times on here, we must remove any incentives. Detain with no freedom to roam. I know Silvertop and others were totally against Rwanda scheme but imo it would have worked but we will never know, unfortunately. The idea of the Navy sending them back is never going to happen but, as the French are doing basically nothing to stop the crossings, perhaps withdrawing our funding should now be considered.

Ha I responded before I read your post.

Nice to be considered the flag waver for the Rwanda idea but it would never have worked. Australia (the model) appears to have quietly shelved their policy and revised it in 2023 as their system was considered to be completely broken.

One policy from Australia you might hate but (hear me out) is new safeguards to prevent exploitation of migrant workers; and improved oversight of employers using migrant labour. At first sight this appears to be an incentive to illegal migrants. I imagine the Express and GB News will love it! However, this is a nice way of attacking the black economy. Employers who flout the law and face a genuine risk of getting caught and prosecuted and/or who are compelled to employ under strict employment protection, payment of taxes and other annoying inconveniences will stop engaging with the black economy. Eats into their profit margin.

Traffickers offer migration/employment packages. If the latter goes, that incentive goes with it. If they are just being offered to be left on a beach with nothing, they might as well try their luck elsewhere in the EU.

I also suggested some months ago, that our law be changed so decisions made on applications for asylum anywhere in the EU are equally binding here. That would require some work and quid pro quo, but you will need to consider that cost against the benefit.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

There is absolutely no chance the Royal Navy will forcibly send back migrants; and even less chance the Royal Marines will forcibly place migrants on a French beach with French marines resisting with equal force. It is an even worse idea than Rwanda, and that was a low bar.

If Farage discussed this with the military before he blurted this risible crap out, they would have made the position very clear.

And Farage knows it. It is a political play to divert attention from their other numerous blunders and seek to resurrect their flagging fortunes.

If these are the sort of f**k-ups Reform are committing so far from government, Lord protect us if they ever got the keys.

Why oh why is there no-one we can safely vote for?

Don't be stupid.

The Marines train for this sort of stuff daily. The military likes to do stuff, not just march about and play games.

At least he has a plan, unlike the utterly pathetic surrender monkeys we currently have in government.
Their only plan is trying to save their jobs. An election is on the horizon, I feel. Voting for these c**** again is like putting a shotgun in your mouth.

 

[Spiderman]

Ha I responded before I read your post.

Nice to be considered the flag waver for the Rwanda idea but it would never have worked. Australia (the model) appears to have quietly shelved their policy and revised it in 2023 as their system was considered to be completely broken.

One policy from Australia you might hate but (hear me out) is new safeguards to prevent exploitation of migrant workers; and improved oversight of employers using migrant labour. At first sight this appears to be an incentive to illegal migrants. I imagine the Express and GB News will love it! However, this is a nice way of attacking the black economy. Employers who flout the law and face a genuine risk of getting caught and prosecuted and/or who are compelled to employ under strict employment protection, payment of taxes and other annoying inconveniences will stop engaging with the black economy. Eats into their profit margin.

Traffickers offer migration/employment packages. If the latter goes, that incentive goes with it. If they are just being offered to be left on a beach with nothing, they might as well try their luck elsewhere in the EU.

I also suggested some months ago, that our law be changed so decisions made on applications for asylum anywhere in the EU are equally binding here. That would require some work and quid pro quo, but you will need to consider that cost against the benefit.

Problem I can see with this is, if refused asylum in the EU, they would travel here and we would still not remove them. If all countries had same criteria for granting asylum it could work but that would not necessarily be the case. A bit like Schengen visas, a French visa Officer could authorise a Visa for someone who had no intention of going to France, would they be so robust in their investigation.
Rwanda should have been given a try as a deterrent, which is what is needed.
Employing illegal workers has been a criminal offence in this country for years, but unless you have the political will to tackle it and prosecute, it will continue. No recent Government have had the will to do so

 

[Spiderman]

A Crowborough update

 

[ASCPFC]

Problem I can see with this is, if refused asylum in the EU, they would travel here and we would still not remove them. If all countries had same criteria for granting asylum it could work but that would not necessarily be the case. A bit like Schengen visas, a French visa Officer could authorise a Visa for someone who had no intention of going to France, would they be so robust in their investigation

You've highlighted an issue there. None of us remove the majority refused anyway. Tens of thousands are in Ireland, who've been refused for pretty basic reasons, but they know they'll never be removed. Same across all of Europe I would think.
And look at the reaction to ICE. That would be far worse in our countries. The resistance would be heroes.

 

[silvertop]

Problem I can see with this is, if refused asylum in the EU, they would travel here and we would still not remove them. If all countries had same criteria for granting asylum it could work but that would not necessarily be the case. A bit like Schengen visas, a French visa Officer could authorise a Visa for someone who had no intention of going to France, would they be so robust in their investigation.
Rwanda should have been given a try as a deterrent, which is what is needed.
Employing illegal workers has been a criminal offence in this country for years, but unless you have the political will to tackle it and prosecute, it will continue. No recent Government have had the will to do so

Prosecution is expensive and not what I said.

Send in H+S HMRC inspectors and other bureaucrats with added enforcement teeth.

Beefy tax bills (with prison if unpaid) legally targeting the individual behind shelf companies will focus attention. As will imposed safety facilities, paid leave and sick pay, strict conditions for the rough HMO residences they are crammed into etc

Regulatory prosecution is largely strict liability and much cheaper.

And in response to the Wisbech question - if it were so simple why not before - the response is obvious. Populist politicians would leap on this as providing paid holidays and fancy housing for illegals. No party wants to provide them with any ammunition. It is pure politics where opportunistic winkers will tap in to prejudice and ignorance.

 

[ASCPFC]

A Crowborough update

What could possibly go wrong? Mixing cadets in British uniforms with British loving immigrants ❤.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

It's a good job the economy is doing so well. As of last year more than a million people born outside the UK were claiming universal credit.

Data shows immigration status of benefit claimants for first time

In June, nearly eight million received universal credit, 83.6% of whom were British and Irish nationals.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[ASCPFC]

I have to take exception at there being no easy solutions. Denmark, just do what they do. That's it.
They also prove that Left wing ideology does not include open borders. It has no bearing on the political spectrum. Having once again, been hijacked by the fringe elements. But now openly used by vested interests such as the current Labour Party.

 

[silvertop]

I have to take exception at there being no easy solutions. Denmark, just do what they do. That's it.
They also prove that Left wing ideology does not include open borders. It has no bearing on the political spectrum. Having once again, been hijacked by the fringe elements. But now openly used by vested interests such as the current Labour Party.

Denmark was not easy. It has taken a long time.

It was also the policy of a left wing government, not right wing populist, so it is intelligent and sensible rather than hard line and knee-jerk.

It focuses on concepts like residency being strictly linked to full employment, education in Danish culture etc. And here is the rub. Its policies have seen a rapid increase in the number of people that come to Denmark to work or study, including people coming from other EU or European Economic Area countries, but a dramatic decrease in the number of refugees and family reunification applicants from outside the EU.

Music to my ears.

However, to those who want to see a more drawbridge England policy, those who voted Leave, they will object. They will continue to desire an increase in the non-working pension population supported by a dwindling working population with no replacement from literate Europeans.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Denmark was not easy. It has taken a long time.

It was also the policy of a left wing government, not right wing populist, so it is intelligent and sensible rather than hard line and knee-jerk.

It focuses on concepts like residency being strictly linked to full employment, education in Danish culture etc. And here is the rub. Its policies have seen a rapid increase in the number of people that come to Denmark to work or study, including people coming from other EU or European Economic Area countries, but a dramatic decrease in the number of refugees and family reunification applicants from outside the EU.

Music to my ears.

However, to those who want to see a more drawbridge England policy, those who voted Leave, they will object. They will continue to desire an increase in the non-working pension population supported by a dwindling working population with no replacement from literate Europeans.

So we can't afford pensioners and yet we can afford a massive welfare system bill and an ever increasing number of illegal migrants?
There is currently increasing unemployment, even with the doctored figures and thousands on sickness benefit who have rarely, if ever, been employed.

You still want to blame Brexit for years of inaction by government and a choice to import the wrong kind of immigrant? You want to blame Brexit for the inadequate relationship between education and employment?

Behave.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

You're misjudging the political capital. Loads would be horrified that we wouldn't just let everyone in and give them stuff. And they would be vocal. Common sense and reasoned people are very much in the minority these days.
We love to push extremes and then wonder why more or less everyone is fed up with it. We pander to the fringes as they protest the most. Or worse than that in certain cases.

Sorry, but I don’t that’s correct. I don’t think any except a tiny fringe want to “let them in a give them stuff”. The vast majority want immigration to be legal and controlled.

 

[ASCPFC]

Sorry, but I don’t that’s correct. I don’t think any except a tiny fringe want to “let them in a give them stuff”. The vast majority want immigration to be legal and controlled.

The majority won't be the loud ones, however. Any restrictions will be labelled as racist, discriminatory and fascist. Loads of the press and the Labour Party will run with that too. I won't bother mentioning the Greens - aren't they quite a percentage now? Consider that.

 

[Spiderman]

Denmark was not easy. It has taken a long time.

It was also the policy of a left wing government, not right wing populist, so it is intelligent and sensible rather than hard line and knee-jerk.

It focuses on concepts like residency being strictly linked to full employment, education in Danish culture etc. And here is the rub. Its policies have seen a rapid increase in the number of people that come to Denmark to work or study, including people coming from other EU or European Economic Area countries, but a dramatic decrease in the number of refugees and family reunification applicants from outside the EU.

Music to my ears.

However, to those who want to see a more drawbridge England policy, those who voted Leave, they will object. They will continue to desire an increase in the non-working pension population supported by a dwindling working population with no replacement from literate Europeans.

Ah that’s alright then, left wing good, right wing bad.
Serious questions how do you think we can stop the migrant crossings? Do you actually want them stopped? If so Do you agree to stop them there must be a deterrent? What would that be? Do you honestly believe all these migrants are genuine asylum seekers?

 

[Stirlingsays]

The majority won't be the loud ones, however. Any restrictions will be labelled as racist, discriminatory and fascist. Loads of the press and the Labour Party will run with that too. I won't bother mentioning the Greens - aren't they quite a percentage now? Consider that.

Rupert Lowe is right that instead of this fear of being labelled 'racist' for believing rational anti leftist politics for your nation you have to respond with 'I don't care'.

Labour's activists are Fabians and will look to get you sacked and ruin your life..... so many will just have to respond at the voting booth rather than get involved......because these people don't play fair and are frankly twisted and evil....Burnham has employed two of these in his government.....but the modern day Labour party...well Labour always has been basically a Fabian group.

It just became more extreme in how it was willing to operate.....today the idea of a Foot and Powell working together are no longer possible.

 

[silvertop]

Ah that’s alright then, left wing good, right wing bad.
Serious questions how do you think we can stop the migrant crossings? Do you actually want them stopped? If so Do you agree to stop them there must be a deterrent? What would that be? Do you honestly believe all these migrants are genuine asylum seekers?

This kind of centrist left is generally good; and populist right is generally bad.

Complex and evolving solutions for complex problems versus simplistic and usually ill thought through policies made up on the hoof that look "tough" etc.

(See comment on why increasing employment and housing protection for migrants will actually reduce migration and why the populist right will nevertheless fight it tooth and nail).

Populism is bad. Right is not bad. Sensible right of centre free market led policies are generally the best, but no party currently has them on offer.

I am not sure why you would ask the question: do I want them stopped? Of course. They are generally unskilled products of a developing world education system and we don't need them. We have enough of that already.

However, we need immigrants. They add much needed labour in a critically diminishing labour market.

But not on boats. Legal, skilled migrants from e.g. the Baltic states will fill the gaps that emigration and aging are creating.