Reform

[CPFCSaturn]

What's your alternative system? Most people have a far higher standard of living than 50 years ago.

To be a social democracy - we have always taken ideas from socialism and capitalism and sought to strike a balance between the two. We have just allowed ourselves to slide way too far to the 'capitalism' end of that spectrum and now need to slide back.

I think one of the things neoliberalism has done amazingly well at in this country is convincing people that there are no serious alternatives or other options, and that this is the best we can hope for.

 

[georgenorman]

To be a social democracy - we have always taken ideas from socialism and capitalism and sought to strike a balance between the two. We have just allowed ourselves to slide way too far to the 'capitalism' end of that spectrum and now need to slide back.

I think one of the things neoliberalism has done amazingly well at in this country is convincing people that there are no serious alternatives or other options, and that this is the best we can hope for.

I disagree, we have slid way too far to the 'state' end of the spectrum and now need to slide back. I think one of the things the Left has done amazingly well in this country is convincing people that there are no serious alternatives to the state running more and more of our lives and that is the best we can hope for.

 

[Stirlingsays]

On wealth inequality; before someone makes the lazy point, I'd firstly just be clear that I am not supporting some sort of communist 'wealth equality'. There is an acceptable level of wealth inequality, but we are miles beyond that.

As you allude to, any economic system where the quality of life for the majority (including the vulnerable) is worsening, whilst a tiny minority hoard absurd amounts of wealth and assets, is clearly not fit for purpose.

Neoliberalism does not have an answer to the problem.

I would agree, as did Thatcher to be fair to her.....that an economy is far healthier when small businesses are far stronger and contain more of the wealth.

I think most of us would agree that too much wealth has been shifted and diverted to the super-rich and that small businesses have been treated very poorly.

 

[silvertop]

I'm not sure how that is possible in terms of left wing media if they aren't breaking laws. I certainly wouldn't support it.

The media is definitely used by government to place its views (covid) but it can only be done in media sympathetic to their requests.



That's already done and would hardly be new.....worthy of criticism but not new.



Definitely....and once again, selective funding of organisations that the establishment want to be out there pushing their narriatives is already done....Hope Not Hate and many other NGOs receive funding this way.

To criticise Reform for doing the same but for their belief systems instead would be a double standard.




I'm not really sure what you mean by that.



Possible and in certain ways desirable.

Throwing out the supreme court would be desirable.....It's a Blair creation and like most things he did needs to go.

Besides I don't regard the judiciary as independent.......Efforts to actually ensure it was wouldn't be amiss.



Well, stupid names for bills are already with us. As for the quality of laws drafted by a Reform government....I guess the proof will be in the eating.

Your right to criticise them should always be defended.....as free speech should always be, regardless of which set of idiots is in charge.

The list of things you respond to could develop into one of those "get a room!" threads between you and Wisbech will I would prefer to avoid!

I suppose the proof will be in the eating and we will discuss extent and effect of any changes brought in that directly curb genuine civil rights and the operation of a fair and effective government.

However, one issue I will take you up on is the judiciary. Where did you get that the Supreme Court was a Blair creation. While there were some constitutional changes, essentially it assumed the role of the House of Lords. Otherwise, no real changes in panel membership or selection, save an attempt to avoid all of those sitting coming from Oxbridge and the Clarendon schools. It was thus a Blaire renaming (albeit at a cost to the public purse of over £50m).

It's judgements can have international implications. It was renamed partly I think to bring it in line with the name of the final appeal tribunal in pretty much all other jurisdictions that matter.

I suspect that many of your hue wont forgive the Court for ruling against the government during the Brexit transition. The knives have been out ever since.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I disagree, we have slid way too far to the 'state' end of the spectrum and now need to slide back. I think one of the things the Left has done amazingly well in this country is convincing people that there are no serious alternatives to the state running more and more of our lives and that is the best we can hope for.

Can you provide some examples of how the state is 'running more and more of our lives' now? If we're comparing with pre-Thatcher, the state was running everything from utilities to railways, so by what measure is it running more now?

Can you highlight where we need to 'slide back' to - at what point in time were the markets given more power than they experience now?

 

[silvertop]

You are focusing on Farage. Why?

Take a look at any MP and tell me they are pure, honest and devoid of self interest.
Tell me that the calibre of politicians currently running the country is of a higher standard.

This kind of attitude is not worthy of someone who appears intelligent.

We have a government whose number are lowering the voting age to 16, have delayed local elections, covered up mass rape and locked people up in an attempt to maintain their control.

Meanwhile the country is being literally invaded by migrants with no solutions in sight.

But that Farage...

At the moment Farage IS Reform. It is the cult of the personality. Not my view. Their tactic. And it's working.

Ask your mates in your local (no I don't attend such places any more either, but you know where I am coming from). Who do you know from Reform? You might get Richard Tice, but otherwise...

The danger of holding one person up (possibly because he represents a thin but popular facade masking a dysfunctional, inept rabble behind?) is that all the bricks will be chucked his way.

Where else?

 

[ASCPFC]

At the moment Farage IS Reform. It is the cult of the personality. Not my view. Their tactic. And it's working.

Ask your mates in your local (no I don't attend such places any more either, but you know where I am coming from). Who do you know from Reform? You might get Richard Tice, but otherwise...

The danger of holding one person up (possibly because he represents a thin but popular facade masking a dysfunctional, inept rabble behind?) is that all the bricks will be chucked his way.

Where else?

I don't like Farage. Yet, I think of Reform as a party that could be different to Tories or Labour. Who I am now sick of. I don't look at any of the personalities really, more the policies. Although, as I say, I find Farage dislikeable. Different to Starmer but equally dislikeable. I don't even mind Badenoch. She seems like just a fill in character anyway. None would sway my vote - the party policies would.

 

[georgenorman]

Can you provide some examples of how the state is 'running more and more of our lives' now? If we're comparing with pre-Thatcher, the state was running everything from utilities to railways, so by what measure is it running more now?

Can you highlight where we need to 'slide back' to - at what point in time were the markets given more power than they experience now?

Just a few examples that immediately spring to mind.
EU making laws when we were in it. Scottish Parliament, Welsh Parliament, Regional Assemblies, Metro Mayors, Police Commissioners. Highest taxation burden in history with decline in state provided services and the money from the taxation largely p’d up the wall. So called hate crimes, indoctrination of children in schools, prosecution of businesses refusing to promote gay ‘marriage’, persecution of women objecting to men pretending to be women sharing their changing rooms, prosecution of people silently standing in public streets, 12-year-olds discriminated against for expressing their culture. General persecution and fleecing of motorists. Routine miscarriages of justice. Shoplifters allowed to run amok while people expressing opinions are prosecuted. Absurd rules and regulations on people replacing boilers etc. My 97-year-old mother-in-law being expected to cope with half a dozen recycling bins.
We can’t go back to a point in time - time travel does not exist. We need to drastically cut state spending and power and enable people to run their own lives.

 

[HKOwen]

At the moment Farage IS Reform. It is the cult of the personality. Not my view. Their tactic. And it's working.

Ask your mates in your local (no I don't attend such places any more either, but you know where I am coming from). Who do you know from Reform? You might get Richard Tice, but otherwise...

The danger of holding one person up (possibly because he represents a thin but popular facade masking a dysfunctional, inept rabble behind?) is that all the bricks will be chucked his way.

Where else?

...When people think you are stupid , best not to start talking and confirm their suspicions

Ah, too late

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Just a few examples that immediately spring to mind.
EU making laws when we were in it. Scottish Parliament, Welsh Parliament, Regional Assemblies, Metro Mayors, Police Commissioners. Highest taxation burden in history with decline in state provided services and the money from the taxation largely p’d up the wall. So called hate crimes, indoctrination of children in schools, prosecution of businesses refusing to promote gay ‘marriage’, persecution of women objecting to men pretending to be women sharing their changing rooms, prosecution of people silently standing in public streets, 12-year-olds discriminated against for expressing their culture. General persecution and fleecing of motorists. Routine miscarriages of justice. Shoplifters allowed to run amok while people expressing opinions are prosecuted. Absurd rules and regulations on people replacing boilers etc. My 97-year-old mother-in-law being expected to cope with half a dozen recycling bins.
We can’t go back to a point in time - time travel does not exist. We need to drastically cut state spending and power and enable people to run their own lives.

This is largely a list of culture war sort of talking points as opposed to anything resembling an economic policy, which is quite telling.

I'd hope we can all agree that gay marriage, trans public bathrooms and the number of recycling bins your mother-in-law uses are not really relevant to a discussion on how we structure our economy.

Culturally, I'd probably agree that the state are more involved than they have been historically, and I'd also largely agree that is unnecessary.

But economically, this doesn't hold up.

 

[georgenorman]

This is largely a list of culture war sort of talking points as opposed to anything resembling an economic policy, which is quite telling.

I'd hope we can all agree that gay marriage, trans public bathrooms and the number of recycling bins your mother-in-law uses are not really relevant to a discussion on how we structure our economy.

Culturally, I'd probably agree that the state are more involved than they have been historically, and I'd also largely agree that is unnecessary.

But economically, this doesn't hold up.

We were discussing how much the state controls our lives, I gave illustrations.
As for economically, how about abolition of the Scottish Parliament, Welsh Parliament, Regional Assemblies, Metro Mayors, Police Commissioners and many, many quangos. Stop bunging 'charities' like Stonewall money (£619,000 last year, over a million in previous years). Stop all support of illegal immigrants. Also, of course, stop trying to rejoin the EU in all but name.
Cut government spending in every way practicable and cut taxation in every way practicable.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

We were discussing how much the state controls our lives, I gave illustrations.
As for economically, how about abolition of the Scottish Parliament, Welsh Parliament, Regional Assemblies, Metro Mayors, Police Commissioners and many, many quangos. Stop bunging 'charities' like Stonewall money (£619,000 last year, over a million in previous years). Stop all support of illegal immigrants. Also, of course, stop trying to rejoin the EU in all but name.
Cut government spending in every way practicable and cut taxation in every way practicable.

We were discussing economic models between socialism and capitalism - the vast majority of what you raised is not really relevant to that at all.

Talking about £619k a year in the context of our economy is just meaningless.

If we abolished all of the things you mentioned, it would not even touch the sides in terms of solving the economic mess we find ourselves in - literally not make a dent. And that's without even getting into the merits of each point.

As I said initially, neoliberalism has had 50 years to demonstrate its merits and failed in pretty much every way imaginable - it's completely illogical to me to say we just need to do more of it.

 

[georgenorman]

We were discussing economic models between socialism and capitalism - the vast majority of what you raised is not really relevant to that at all.

Talking about £619k a year in the context of our economy is just meaningless.

If we abolished all of the things you mentioned, it would not even touch the sides in terms of solving the economic mess we find ourselves in - literally not make a dent. And that's without even getting into the merits of each point.

As I said initially, neoliberalism has had 50 years to demonstrate its merits and failed in pretty much every way imaginable - it's completely illogical to me to say we just need to do more of it.

The question you asked was “Can you provide some examples of how the state is 'running more and more of our lives' now?” I merely provided some examples.
Socialist economics has failed wherever it has been attempted
The Stonewall £619,000 was just one example. It is a frequent tactic of the Left to say that any expenditure is trivial in comparison to the whole economy. There are many, many examples of similar handouts to dubious organisation. Add up all the ‘trivial’ amounts and it becomes substantial – defunding Stonewall would also have the great advantage of hopefully closing it down.
As for the other items that you say would not touch the sides, “literally not make a dent”:
London Assembly: £943.9 million last year
Scottish Parliament: £26 million last year
Welsh Parliament: £84 million last year
Can’t be arsed to research all of the regional bodies. The overall total is clearly going to be in the billions. Abolition would of course have the added great benefit of removing some of the oppressive layers of government and taxation that we suffer.
Why people think that we need more government and more taxation when it is seen to fail in pretty much every way imaginable defies logic.

 

[beak]

The question you asked was “Can you provide some examples of how the state is 'running more and more of our lives' now?” I merely provided some examples.
Socialist economics has failed wherever it has been attempted
The Stonewall £619,00 was just one example. It is a frequent tactic of the Left to say that any expenditure is trivial in comparison to the whole economy. There are many, many examples of similar handouts to dubious organisation. Add up all the ‘trivial’ amounts and it becomes substantial – defunding Stonewall would also have the great advantage of hopefully closing it down.
As for the other items that you say would not touch the sides, “literally not make a dent”:
London Assembly: £943.9 million last year
Scottish Parliament: £26 million last year
Welsh Parliament: £84 million last year
Can’t be arsed to research all of the regional bodies. The overall total is clearly going to be in the billions. Abolition would of course have the added great benefit of removing some of the oppressive layers of government and taxation that we suffer.
Why people think that we need more government and more taxation when it is seen to fail in pretty much every way imaginable defies logic.

Nothing like the £10 million taken by Tory peer Michelle Mone. Labour are amateurs at bleeding the tax payer,the tories have it off to a fine art.

 

[silvertop]

...When people think you are stupid , best not to start talking and confirm their suspicions

Ah, too late

Didn't you make that "joke" about an hour ago?

Nap time?

 

[Stirlingsays]

A valid argument from Matt Goodwin.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1945609481624457513

 

[georgenorman]

Nothing like the £10 million taken by Tory peer Michelle Mone. Labour are amateurs at bleeding the tax payer,the tories have it off to a fine art.

All political parties bleed the taxpayer. All political parties are hopeless at using the money from taxation wisely. All government is inefficient and incompetent.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

At the moment Farage IS Reform. It is the cult of the personality. Not my view. Their tactic. And it's working.

Ask your mates in your local (no I don't attend such places any more either, but you know where I am coming from). Who do you know from Reform? You might get Richard Tice, but otherwise...

The danger of holding one person up (possibly because he represents a thin but popular facade masking a dysfunctional, inept rabble behind?) is that all the bricks will be chucked his way.

Where else?

Rome wasn't built in a day. Reform is growing, and they will have to learn on the job if they are elected.

I can't imagine a more useless set of politicians than currently occupy government, so the bar is low.