Reform

[HKOwen]

I am not the only person who has held up speeches by Reform and Joseph Goebbels and challenged you to spot the difference.

That you do not like it does not make it any less.

...When people think you are stupid , best not to start talking and confirm their suspicions

Ah, too late

 

[Willo]

So give us an insider’s prediction of what the outcome of this “renewal” will be?

Will the Tories become Reform Lite? As populist but with the aura of respectability?

Or will they return to their core values of running a balanced economy whilst also acknowledging their social responsibilities? A party with the heart of a Macmillan and the pulse of a Heseltine.

I shall not pre-judge the outcome of this 'Renewal' as it is still in progress.
We are dealing with the reality. We are confronting the real problems, answering the real questions, and will be ready with a plan.

 

[georgenorman]

I shall not pre-judge the outcome of this 'Renewal' as it is still in progress.
We are dealing with the reality. We are confronting the real problems, answering the real questions, and will be ready with a plan.

The reality is that both the Conservative and Labour parties are incompetent and wholly incapable of addressing the major problems of the country. A Thatcher-style revolution is required and Reform look to be the only alternative that might deliver it. There would be a good deal of cuts in government spending involved and no doubt some social unrest - as there was with Thatcher, but it is required and inevitable, we simply can't keep travelling in the clown-cars of the established parties.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

I shall not pre-judge the outcome of this 'Renewal' as it is still in progress.
We are dealing with the reality. We are confronting the real problems, answering the real questions, and will be ready with a plan.

What a surprise. Whatever it is you will adopt it as being the best thing since the last one.

All I want to know is whether the party is turning hard right or back to the centre? Or perhaps stumbling along without resolving the issue?

The right turn would be into a cul de sac that would then be blocked by Reform so there could be no escape.

Turning to the centre puts daylight between you and Reform whilst recapturing a large chunk of the disillusioned social democratic wing that defected to Labour.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

The reality is that both the Conservative and Labour parties are incompetent and wholly incapable of addressing the major problems of the country. A Thatcher-style revolution is required and Reform look to be the only alternative that might deliver it. There would be a good deal of cuts in government spending involved and no doubt some social unrest - as there was with Thatcher, but it is required and inevitable, we simply can't keep travelling in the clown-cars of the established parties.

Thatcher had the unions to emasculate, something that was popular with a large percentage at the time because of their unreasonable behaviour. Then she had the Falklands to provide a flag to rally around.

Those conditions don’t exist now. Farage isn’t charismatic like Thatcher. Many disliked her but admired her determination and fortitude. She was trusted. No one ever thought she was in it for personal gain. Not so Farage.

 

[georgenorman]

Thatcher had the unions to emasculate, something that was popular with a large percentage at the time because of their unreasonable behaviour. Then she had the Falklands to provide a flag to rally around.

Those conditions don’t exist now. Farage isn’t charismatic like Thatcher. Many disliked her but admired her determination and fortitude. She was trusted. No one ever thought she was in it for personal gain. Not so Farage.

Thatcher’s revolution was far more wide-ranging than controlling the unions and defending the Falklands. Certainly, she was popular with the majority of the population, that’s why she won three elections, the Left of course hated her, but they hate everyone really, including many of their own ‘comrades’. People don’t necessarily trust who they vote for. They vote for leaders that they think are capable and will actually lead effectively – same with Blair and Brown as Chancellor (the Left of course hate them too). Farage has no need to be in politics for personal gain, he was in fact reluctant to return to political leadership after Brexit. Meanwhile, instead of burying Norman Tebbit, we could strap his corpse to the Front Bench of the Commons – in that condition he would still do a better job than Starmer.

 

[silvertop]

Obviously context is different in this case!
Never mind….

You lot genuinely read blah blah blah Reform blah blah blah NAZIs.

I made it clear they were not the same. The context is obviously different.

However, there are also alarming similarities. The poor economy with no sign of green shoots. The worsening international situation with sabers rattling. The combination of unchecked migration and corresponding demonizing of minorities as blame for ALL ills. The perceived failure of liberal policies to address the problems. And, above all, the rise of populist politics with a flight of votes to each extreme.

A right wing populist government is bound to borrow tropes from the other, even if not consciously. I just hope they blow through with the minimum damage. I really do.

 

[NMPalace]

Thatcher’s revolution was far more wide-ranging than controlling the unions and defending the Falklands. Certainly, she was popular with the majority of the population, that’s why she won three elections, the Left of course hated her, but they hate everyone really, including many of their own ‘comrades’. People don’t necessarily trust who they vote for. They vote for leaders that they think are capable and will actually lead effectively – same with Blair and Brown as Chancellor (the Left of course hate them too). Farage has no need to be in politics for personal gain, he was in fact reluctant to return to political leadership after Brexit. Meanwhile, instead of burying Norman Tebbit, we could strap his corpse to the Front Bench of the Commons – in that condition he would still do a better job than Starmer.

Surely you don't believe that lie.

He is all about personal gain - you can still line his pocket despite being a supposed full time MP.

https://www.cameo.com/nigelfarage?qid=1752743310&aaQueryId=f61e03b3dd0374516d19178cd8225d82

 

[Stirlingsays]

You lot genuinely read blah blah blah Reform blah blah blah NAZIs.

I made it clear they were not the same. The context is obviously different.

However, there are also alarming similarities. The poor economy with no sign of green shoots. The worsening international situation with sabers rattling. The combination of unchecked migration and corresponding demonizing of minorities as blame for ALL ills. The perceived failure of liberal policies to address the problems. And, above all, the rise of populist politics with a flight of votes to each extreme.

A right wing populist government is bound to borrow tropes from the other, even if not consciously. I just hope they blow through with the minimum damage. I really do.

You should accept that it's not sensible to use this language.

I expect you have knowledge of British governments since the war and that being the case you'd understand that we've had more right wing parties in power than Reform. Thatcher's government wasn't as socially conservative as Churchill's in the 50s for example.

If you placed any British Conservative right wing government from before 2000 into today's problems....which you highlight then they would all probably react similar to a Reform....if not harsher actually.

Farage is a Thatcherite and nowhere near as right wing, in my view, as he'd need to be to turn this country around.

Regardless, using the term Nazi can't be disconnected from ethnic genocide and it's quite insulting and scare mongering to label any British party with that as it's never happened here.

Mass deportations of illegals is not what the Nazis did, they killed them instead and mass deportations of illegals happens in other countries to this day. India did it recently and America is doing it.

It's called border control.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

You lot genuinely read blah blah blah Reform blah blah blah NAZIs.

I made it clear they were not the same. The context is obviously different.

However, there are also alarming similarities. The poor economy with no sign of green shoots. The worsening international situation with sabers rattling. The combination of unchecked migration and corresponding demonizing of minorities as blame for ALL ills. The perceived failure of liberal policies to address the problems. And, above all, the rise of populist politics with a flight of votes to each extreme.

A right wing populist government is bound to borrow tropes from the other, even if not consciously. I just hope they blow through with the minimum damage. I really do.

You are contradicting yourself and talking drivel.

Using idiotic buzz words just doesn't wash any more.

Move in with Wisbech. I'm sure there is room in his deluded bubble for both of you.

 

[georgenorman]

Surely you don't believe that lie.

He is all about personal gain - you can still line his pocket despite being a supposed full time MP.

https://www.cameo.com/nigelfarage?qid=1752743310&aaQueryId=f61e03b3dd0374516d19178cd8225d82

What's wrong with earning money?

 

[silvertop]

You are contradicting yourself and talking drivel.

Using idiotic buzz words just doesn't wash any more.

Move in with Wisbech. I'm sure there is room in his deluded bubble for both of you.

You know, I really hope I am talking delusional drivel, I really do. If Farage is nothing more than a bargain-basement Thatcherite blow-hard, then I will still be cleaning egg off my face by his third year.

I wont agree with much of his policy, but it will not be the descent into chaos I genuinely fear.

But keep your eyes open for any attempt to chill the media, suppress information, proscribe or withdraw funding from "undesirable" organizations, amend parliamentary rules, direct action against an independent judiciary, instituting poorly thought through and even worse drafted legislation with names like "Patriot Act" etc.

Yeah, equating Reform to the NAZIs is always dangerous, and probably wrong in hindsight. However, if it is one thing history has told us and that is to be extra cautions at moments like this; and to beware of charismatic leaders who promise they can deliver us from it all.

 

[Stirlingsays]

But keep your eyes open for any attempt to chill the media

I'm not sure how that is possible in terms of left wing media if they aren't breaking laws. I certainly wouldn't support it.

The media is definitely used by government to place its views (covid) but it can only be done in media sympathetic to their requests.

suppress information

That's already done and would hardly be new.....worthy of criticism but not new.

proscribe or withdraw funding from "undesirable" organizations

Definitely....and once again, selective funding of organisations that the establishment want to be out there pushing their narriatives is already done....Hope Not Hate and many other NGOs receive funding this way.

To criticise Reform for doing the same but for their belief systems instead would be a double standard.

amend parliamentary rules

I'm not really sure what you mean by that.

direct action against an independent judiciary

Possible and in certain ways desirable.

Throwing out the supreme court would be desirable.....It's a Blair creation and like most things he did needs to go.

Besides I don't regard the judiciary as independent.......Efforts to actually ensure it was wouldn't be amiss.

instituting poorly thought through and even worse drafted legislation with names like "Patriot Act" etc.

Well, stupid names for bills are already with us. As for the quality of laws drafted by a Reform government....I guess the proof will be in the eating.

Your right to criticise them should always be defended.....as free speech should always be, regardless of which set of idiots is in charge.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

You know, I really hope I am talking delusional drivel, I really do. If Farage is nothing more than a bargain-basement Thatcherite blow-hard, then I will still be cleaning egg off my face by his third year.

I wont agree with much of his policy, but it will not be the descent into chaos I genuinely fear.

But keep your eyes open for any attempt to chill the media, suppress information, proscribe or withdraw funding from "undesirable" organizations, amend parliamentary rules, direct action against an independent judiciary, instituting poorly thought through and even worse drafted legislation with names like "Patriot Act" etc.

Yeah, equating Reform to the NAZIs is always dangerous, and probably wrong in hindsight. However, if it is one thing history has told us and that is to be extra cautions at moments like this; and to beware of charismatic leaders who promise they can deliver us from it all.

You are focusing on Farage. Why?

Take a look at any MP and tell me they are pure, honest and devoid of self interest.
Tell me that the calibre of politicians currently running the country is of a higher standard.

This kind of attitude is not worthy of someone who appears intelligent.

We have a government whose number are lowering the voting age to 16, have delayed local elections, covered up mass rape and locked people up in an attempt to maintain their control.

Meanwhile the country is being literally invaded by migrants with no solutions in sight.

But that Farage...

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Thatcher’s revolution was far more wide-ranging than controlling the unions and defending the Falklands. Certainly, she was popular with the majority of the population, that’s why she won three elections, the Left of course hated her, but they hate everyone really, including many of their own ‘comrades’. People don’t necessarily trust who they vote for. They vote for leaders that they think are capable and will actually lead effectively – same with Blair and Brown as Chancellor (the Left of course hate them too). Farage has no need to be in politics for personal gain, he was in fact reluctant to return to political leadership after Brexit. Meanwhile, instead of burying Norman Tebbit, we could strap his corpse to the Front Bench of the Commons – in that condition he would still do a better job than Starmer.

And over time it's led to worse outcomes in pretty much every measurable way.

I think it's genuine insanity that, even after the whole Liz Truss debacle, there is still weight given to the argument that we just need more neoliberalism to solve the fact it's been one enormous disaster.

Neoliberalism won - it's the only economic approach either party has taken for 50-odd years. It's had a complete monopoly on how we structure our economy for decades, and all it's done is drastically worsen wealth inequality whilst producing worse outcomes across the board for the majority, and still we have to pretend it is also the solution to this mess.

Utter, utter insanity.

 

[Stirlingsays]

And over time it's led to worse outcomes in pretty much every measurable way.

I think it's genuine insanity that, even after the whole Liz Truss debacle, there is still weight given to the argument that we just need more neoliberalism to solve the fact it's been one enormous disaster.

Neoliberalism won - it's the only economic approach either party has taken for 50-odd years. It's had a complete monopoly on how we structure our economy for decades, and all it's done is drastically worsen wealth inequality whilst producing worse outcomes across the board for the majority, and still we have to pretend it is also the solution to this mess.

Utter, utter insanity.

I suspect George may somewhat agree with criticism of the excesses of neoliberalism, as would I.

But what I think we have to admit is that each PM has to deal with the structure of the economy as it stands. We can't just switch out of neoliberalism when it's the system all over the western world.

That's not to say that criticism of it and somethings Thatcher did aren't valid.

I'd also comment that I don't believe wealth inequality is inherently bad......The right don't believe in 'equality' in general. What I would say matters is how high is the standard of living for the most vulnerable of our nationals...It's the aspiration that we have a civilisational standard that we can apply worthy of the name.

Personally I don't think Truss was given a chance and was forced out before a proper analysis can be made. She's an example of the oversized power of the markets and BoE and civil service.....obviously none of whom are democratic.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I suspect George may somewhat agree with criticism of the excesses of neoliberalism, as would I.

But what I think we have to admit is that each PM has to deal with the structure of the economy as it stands. We can't just switch out of neoliberalism when it's the system all over the western world.

That's not to say that criticism of it and somethings Thatcher did aren't valid.

Personally I don't think Truss was given a chance and was forced out before a proper analysis can be made. She's an example of the oversized power of the markets and BoE and civil service.....obviously none of whom are democratic.

What economic approach has led to the markets being too powerful..? 🙂

 

[Stirlingsays]

What economic approach has led to the markets being too powerful..? 🙂

Granted.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I suspect George may somewhat agree with criticism of the excesses of neoliberalism, as would I.

But what I think we have to admit is that each PM has to deal with the structure of the economy as it stands. We can't just switch out of neoliberalism when it's the system all over the western world.

That's not to say that criticism of it and somethings Thatcher did aren't valid.

I'd also comment that I don't believe wealth inequality is inherently bad......The right don't believe in 'equality' in general. What I would say matters is how high is the standard of living for the most vulnerable of our nationals...It's the aspiration that we have a civilisational standard that we can apply worthy of the name.

Personally I don't think Truss was given a chance and was forced out before a proper analysis can be made. She's an example of the oversized power of the markets and BoE and civil service.....obviously none of whom are democratic.

On wealth inequality; before someone makes the lazy point, I'd firstly just be clear that I am not supporting some sort of communist 'wealth equality'. There is an acceptable level of wealth inequality, but we are miles beyond that.

As you allude to, any economic system where the quality of life for the majority (including the vulnerable) is worsening, whilst a tiny minority hoard absurd amounts of wealth and assets, is clearly not fit for purpose.

Neoliberalism does not have an answer to the problem.

 

[georgenorman]

And over time it's led to worse outcomes in pretty much every measurable way.

I think it's genuine insanity that, even after the whole Liz Truss debacle, there is still weight given to the argument that we just need more neoliberalism to solve the fact it's been one enormous disaster.

Neoliberalism won - it's the only economic approach either party has taken for 50-odd years. It's had a complete monopoly on how we structure our economy for decades, and all it's done is drastically worsen wealth inequality whilst producing worse outcomes across the board for the majority, and still we have to pretend it is also the solution to this mess.

Utter, utter insanity.

What's your alternative system? Most people have a far higher standard of living than 50 years ago.