Palace Fans Against Racism

[Part Time James]

So why wouldn’t someone who meets that definition be welcome at Palace?

I didn't say I agree with that statement. Did you infer it?

I did say it's not racist though and I will stick by that. Even the OP backed down very quickly on that definition when challenged. Still on his unedited list of evidence of racism at Palace though, which gets rather short if he were to remove it.

 

[DanH]

I didn't say I agree with that statement. Did you infer it?

I did say it's not racist though and I will stick by that. Even the OP backed down very quickly on that definition when challenged. Still on his unedited list of evidence of racism at Palace though, which gets rather short if he were to remove it.

I never said you did agree with it, but whoever made and put those stickers up did. If politics should be kept out of football, surely you want whoever is responsible for them to stop it?

 

[Wigster]

If a flag saying ‘Stop The Boats’ is racist, why didn’t anyone call Kier Starmer out as part of of his election campaign. ‘Stop the boats, Smash the gangs’.
Is that not the same thing?

 

[Mwncisee]

Well, no sarcasm intended here, I wholeheartedly agree. I would happily see all political opinion expelled from football. I think most of us would. Whatever that opinion is, whether it's my opinion or somebody else's.

This is on the Palace Talk forum and is about politics, but we can overlook that. Generally I agree with you.

I think in fairness it does cross over between the two, as the OP is referring to instances at Palace games and a Palace group. I totally agree with you that It's a shame politics does come into sport etc, but it always has done and will. There will always be some cross over as people/groups etc don't suddenly change into different beings at sports events.

 

[Part Time James]

I never said you did agree with it, but whoever made and put those stickers up did. If politics should be kept out of football, surely you want whoever is responsible for them to stop it?

100%

Read back what I've said. I don't automatically become a champion of something just because I don't agree that it's racist. I don't like a lot of things but I don't have to brand them "racist" to trick people into having to agree with me.

And that sir, is why I think the strategy has failed the OP.

Do I disagree with what he wants to achieve? I don't think I've said that. Do I think he's gone about it in a way that will rally his allies and bring more people on board with his cause? Dubious.

 

[eaglesdare]

that's irrelevant to the point I was making, if you look o this thread a lot of the comments have been "you lefties" which is a presumption about peoples political leanings, in the same way you are saying if you don't agree with our politics your a racist, I am making the same point of if you don't agree with your politics your a leftie.

That's a false equivalence. A "Leftie" is a description that describes somones political position. "Racist" is a character attack. There is an asymmetry in tolerance.

Just take a look at who platforms who and who gets cancelled. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Part Time James]

I think in fairness it does cross over between the two, as the OP is referring to instances at Palace games and a Palace group. I totally agree with you that It's a shame politics does come into sport etc, but it always has done and will. There will always be some cross over as people/groups etc don't suddenly change into different beings at sports events.

There will and I'm not a fan of it, far from it. Don't think I am seeing much support here for any politics in football.

There seems to be a general consensus that it's infrequent and that the people instigating the racism will be brought to justice by stewards, police or a fellow fan with a knuckleduster. Good stuff. The OP was disingenuous to bulk out his list with things that need a deeper dive into motive. I'm not deaf to the fact racist people will say stop the boats, but some acknowledgement needs to be made that a lot of people will say that for non-racist reasons too. As I say, you need to ascertain motive. That's why some moderate people, who could have been allies to the cause will take offence and pick this apart.

Like I have said, I question the dangerous strategy not necessarily the message at a high level. I am nervous that if we all called everything racist, it actually results in the subject being taken less seriously rather than more seriously. Perhaps this thread is a sufficient sample size to indicate some truth in that?

 

[Mwncisee]

That's a false equivalence. A "Leftie" is a description that describes somones political position. "Racist" is a character attack. There is an asymmetry in tolerance.

Just take a look at who platforms who and who gets cancelled. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Many would argue that racist is an extreme righty. But that is semantics, which we will not solve here lol 🙂 I do stand by my assertion that it all works both ways and on one hand many are expressing they dont like being pigeonholed for expressing their views, whilst at the same time those who have opposing views are being pigeonholed (and yes I did have to spellcheck pigeonholed!)

 

[DanH]

100%

Read back what I've said. I don't automatically become a champion of something just because I don't agree that it's racist. I don't like a lot of things but I don't have to brand them "racist" to trick people into having to agree with me.

And that sir, is why I think the strategy has failed the OP.

Do I disagree with what he wants to achieve? I don't think I've said that. Do I think he's gone about it in a way that will rally his allies and bring more people on board with his cause? Dubious.

Agreed. Although while I agree there is nothing explicitly racist about the flags I do have direct experience of them using racist language - including calling a mate of Sri Lankan heritage a P*ki without any provocation.

 

[Mwncisee]

There will and I'm not a fan of it, far from it. Don't think I am seeing much support here for any politics in football.

There seems to be a general consensus that it's infrequent and that the people instigating the racism will be brought to justice by stewards, police or a fellow fan with a knuckleduster. Good stuff. The OP was disingenuous to bulk out his list with things that need a deeper dive into motive. I'm not deaf to the fact racist people will say stop the boats, but some acknowledgement needs to be made that a lot of people will say that for non-racist reasons too. As I say, you need to ascertain motive. That's why some moderate people, who could have been allies to the cause will take offence and pick this apart.

Like I have said, I question the dangerous strategy not necessarily the message at a high level. I am nervous that if we all called everything racist, it actually results in the subject being taken less seriously rather than more seriously. Perhaps this thread is a sufficient sample size to indicate some truth in that?

I agree, and just to be clear I do agree the example of `Stop the boats` was a poor choice by the Op, as this is a political expression not a racial one. Politics often divides, as it has done on here. It actually supports the reason why the stop the boats flag should not have been used/taken to palace games, as due to it's political nature it is not necessarily a representation of all supporters views.

 

[TomH_CPFC]

The responses on this post sadden me.

It saddens you that there is no racism at Palace beyond isolated incidents so most people think no "movement" is needed to combat a non existent problem? ... OK.

 

[Save Dwindlehurst]

It saddens you that there is no racism at Palace beyond isolated incidents so most people think no "movement" is needed to combat a non existent problem? ... OK.

Nail on the head!

 

[Mwncisee]

It saddens you that there is no racism at Palace beyond isolated incidents so most people think no "movement" is needed to combat a non existent problem? ... OK.

Does it? Please tell me how you know this about me?

 

[eaglesdare]

Many would argue that racist is an extreme righty. But that is semantics, which we will not solve here lol 🙂 I do stand by my assertion that it all works both ways and on one hand many are expressing they dont like being pigeonholed for expressing their views, whilst at the same time those who have opposing views are being pigeonholed (and yes I did have to spellcheck pigeonholed!)

I guess it's fair point on semantics there. But the outcomes aren't symmetric here. One side routinely de-platforms and cancels on any disagreements. The other mostly argues back. That's where the tolerance gap differs. 😉

Am I a "racist" for being concerned about illegal immigration? If I voiced my concerns on the BBS. How long do you think I would last?

 

[martin2412]

Because certain organisations or certain people have used the racism tag so much over the last 40 ish years it's become meaningless.
It's the 'go to' accusation from the left as soon as anyone questions things like illegal immigration, black knife crime, Asian rape gangs, Albanian drug dealers etc, etc.
It all started with Bernie Grant at Haringey Council, and has continued with Sadiq Khan to this day.
It's laughable.

 

[Mwncisee]

I guess it's fair point on semantics there. But the outcomes aren't symmetric here. One side routinely de-platforms and cancels on any disagreements. The other mostly argues back. That's where the tolerance gap differs. 😉

Am I a "racist" for being concerned about illegal immigration? If I voiced my concerns on the BBS. How long do you think I would last?

honestly I do not go on the BBs, nor can speak on behalf of it. It's all a matter of opinion and perspective as you say semantics, that will differ from person to person. As you say being labelled racist (I'm not sure anyone has accused you of that on here, but I could be wrong on that). likewise it is your opinion that the argument/difference is asymmetric. I know I have not called you racist, and I do not believe you are accusing me of, but also look at some of the responses that have been directed at me on here for simply stating the posts have saddened me. Most have them have been disingenuous

 

[eaglesdare]

honestly I do not go on the BBs, nor can speak on behalf of it. It's all a matter of opinion and perspective as you say semantics, that will differ from person to person. As you say being labelled racist (I'm not sure anyone has accused you of that on here, but I could be wrong on that). likewise it is your opinion that the argument/difference is asymmetric. I know I have not called you racist, and I do not believe you are accusing me of, but also look at some of the responses that have been directed at me on here for simply stating the posts have saddened me. Most have them have been disingenuous

I would recommend to try posting a calm, moderate concern about illegal immigration on the BBS and watch the replies. That test will show the difference. Let us know how you get on! 🤪

 

[Part Time James]

I would recommend to try posting a calm, moderate concern about illegal immigration on the BBS and watch the replies. That test will show the difference. Let us know how you get on! 🤪

Maybe that's the issue here. We're all extremely moderate on here and those kinds of extremes cause problems. Down with extreme common sense.

Sorry, just lightening the mood!

 

[Mwncisee]

I would recommend to try posting a calm, moderate concern about illegal immigration on the BBS and watch the replies. That test will show the difference. Let us know how you get on! 🤪

I have no doubt as to the accuracy of your claims. I do not need to try.

As I think we can both agree any public debate will cause and allow extreme views on either side to come into it. As I said the stop the boats element was ill-advised in my opinion. I do think that element of the OP's message has been seized on (and quite rightly challenged) but likewise that element should not be used to disregard the entirety of his point or message.

 

[DanH]

Will never understand this weird utter obsession on here with the BBS.