Our present squad

[CPFCSaturn]

I accept that the big wages makes sense, even to other players, when a guy arrives on a free. Kamada isn't arriving on a free now, though. He is already here, and Palace have to decide what wage to offer him based on his contribution up to now and what we can expect over the course of the new contract. I cannot see a way for that to add up to six figures a week. Even if that is only a couple of million a year, the same could be said of all the players and all the contracts. There must be some sense of value for money and a hierarchy of merit. More importantly, there is a ratio of turnover to wages that we have to stay within, and Kamada is difficult to justify in that respect.

I take your point about him playing as a defensive screen, but lets not forget that he was moved to that position having repeatedly failed to make an impact as a No10, which appears to be be what he was brought in (and given big wages) to be. Unlike Hughes, Wharton, or Lerma, Kamada has had quite a few games playing further forward but still has a very low goal tally. I'm not sure the club would have agreed to £105k pw for a neat, steady holding midfielder.

Generally, stats can be read lots of different ways and should never overrule what the eye can see. Wharton, for instance, has a famously low pass completion rate but is plainly our best user of the ball and key playmaker - he just tries things. Kamada, on the other hand, passes it square and backwards a lot. As per my last, he often passes it slightly between the receiving players feet, or a split second too late. That will show as a completed pass, but doesn't mean Kamada is a very good passer and playmaker. He's OK, better than Lerma certainly, but that's not a high bar and doesn't make him good , and certainly doesn't make him good value for money.

What counts as a tackle for the stats appears dubious to me. I have certainly seen Lerma compete wholeheartedly in strong physical duels, both in the air on on the ground, but cannot think of a game when Kamada has imposed himself physically.

I don't think he's a poor player, but he just isn't worth the money that could be allocated elsewhere. If he wanted to stay on half the wage then fine, but I doubt he will.

But why? He's one of our most important players and that's what good players demand these days - Nketiah is on six figures a week, and I'd very much assume Johnson and Strand Larsen have also joined him in that club based on their transfer fees. I have far, far more issue with Nketiah earning that kind of wage than Kamada.

We have one of the lowest wage bills in the division. To replace a player of Kamada's quality and experience conservatively costs £20m in a transfer fee, and then you're still going to end up paying the replacement six figures a week in wages, with no guarantee they're any better.

It doesn't seem there is any realistic prospect of retaining him due to the Glasner stuff so it's all rather speculative, but I do find the mentality that we should lose a very good player on a free to 'save' on wages to be very hard to understand - we've very recently seen how much his absence impacts the team.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Agree. Ultimately he was bought in as a No10 and has failed in that position regularly. He lack of pace and no left foot means he can't beat a man so relies on movement and quick passes etc.
This wasn't just last season - he has played as a 10 a few times this season too - Villa away (Ok), Burnley (rubbish) etc.
Of his 50 appearances i think almost half would have been in an attacking position so to not score in the league is poor.

However, after initially struggling as a CM he has improved quite a bit, and even when coming on as a sub on Sunday looked composed and added to the team.

Overall, he's not worth the wages but has not been a disaster either.

His 3 Wembley appearances will be long remembered.

I agree he was likely signed with one of the 10 spots in mind, but why does that matter?

He and the club identified that he could impact games more from a deeper role, and since then he's been instrumental in our most successful ever side.

£100k a week in Premier League terms is really nothing to be jumping up and down about; it's a pretty standard wage for an established international player.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

Said who?

Surely the teamsheets say so? Not to mention the wage slips.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

But why? He's one of our most important players and that's what good players demand these days - Nketiah is on six figures a week, and I'd very much assume Johnson and Strand Larsen have also joined him in that club based on their transfer fees. I have far, far more issue with Nketiah earning that kind of wage than Kamada.

We have one of the lowest wage bills in the division. To replace a player of Kamada's quality and experience conservatively costs £20m in a transfer fee, and then you're still going to end up paying the replacement six figures a week in wages, with no guarantee they're any better.

It doesn't seem there is any realistic prospect of retaining him due to the Glasner stuff so it's all rather speculative, but I do find the mentality that we should lose a very good player on a free to 'save' on wages to be very hard to understand - we've very recently seen how much his absence impacts the team.

I think fundamentally I, and it seems many others on here, just don't see that he is one of our most important players.

That might not weigh very much in itself, as we all have opinions, but what does the market suggest?

When we got him on a free it didn't seem as if we were fighting off competition from big clubs to get him. Similarly, there is very little to suggest big clubs are interested in signing him come the summer. That doesn't mean he isn't on anyone's radar at all, but if he really was one of our best players then surely by now there would be all sorts of links and rumours, and someone would have offered money in January to pre-empt the scramble in summer? Look what happened with Geuhi - that's surely what it looks like when one of our best players is running his contract down. None of that has happened with Kamada. Surely that shows that the market doesn't think too highly of him?

Even if we are not big wage payers compared to others, we still have to balance the books, including wages to turnover ratios. Even if £105k pw is common enough across the league, its still a lot for Palace.

We could certainly spend £20m trying to replace him and be no better off, but we could also be noticeably better off for it, with a younger player on less money with a higher sale value. Critically, we could get someone better. All transfers are a gamble, but our odds of success are decent when it comes to upgrading on Kamada. Replacing Olise, Eze etc is mission impossible. Not so with Kamada.

Of course, that all comes down to how highly you rate the player to begin with, and we each see these things differently. As above though, it doesn't seem like the club or player are fighting big clubs off at the moment, and that feels a bit telling.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I think fundamentally I, and it seems many others on here, just don't see that he is one of our most important players.

That might not weigh very much in itself, as we all have opinions, but what does the market suggest?

When we got him on a free it didn't seem as if we were fighting off competition from big clubs to get him. Similarly, there is very little to suggest big clubs are interested in signing him come the summer. That doesn't mean he isn't on anyone's radar at all, but if he really was one of our best players then surely by now there would be all sorts of links and rumours, and someone would have offered money in January to pre-empt the scramble in summer? Look what happened with Geuhi - that's surely what it looks like when one of our best players is running his contract down. None of that has happened with Kamada. Surely that shows that the market doesn't think too highly of him?

Even if we are not big wage payers compared to others, we still have to balance the books, including wages to turnover ratios. Even if £105k pw is common enough across the league, its still a lot for Palace.

We could certainly spend £20m trying to replace him and be no better off, but we could also be noticeably better off for it, with a younger player on less money with a higher sale value. Critically, we could get someone better. All transfers are a gamble, but our odds of success are decent when it comes to upgrading on Kamada. Replacing Olise, Eze etc is mission impossible. Not so with Kamada.

Of course, that all comes down to how highly you rate the player to begin with, and we each see these things differently. As above though, it doesn't seem like the club or player are fighting big clubs off at the moment, and that feels a bit telling.

But surely by definition he is that? A key performer in all of the big games last season, a noticeable drop off in our performances when he's not in the team... at some point isn't it just objectively true that he's an important player for us?

I find the 'balance the books' stuff very unconvincing - we are miles off falling foul of any wage/turnover concerns. It's pushing a solution for a problem we don't have.

We'll see where he ends up next season, but I don't expect he'll be short of offers from strong European clubs - he has an impressive CV and doesn't seem to have ever struggled for suitors. The reality is we have no idea what conversations his agent is having in the background.

That he's not as in-demand as Marc Guehi is obviously not surprising.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

But surely by definition he is that? A key performer in all of the big games last season, a noticeable drop off in our performances when he's not in the team... at some point isn't it just objectively true that he's an important player for us?

I find the 'balance the books' stuff very unconvincing - we are miles off falling foul of any wage/turnover concerns. It's pushing a solution for a problem we don't have.

We'll see where he ends up next season, but I don't expect he'll be short of offers from strong European clubs - he has an impressive CV and doesn't seem to have ever struggled for suitors. The reality is we have no idea what conversations his agent is having in the background.

That he's not as in-demand as Marc Guehi is obviously not surprising.

Without us going round in circles, again, its the opinion of yourself and others that he was a key performer in all of the big games last season. Clearly plenty of us feel otherwise.

For me, whilst Kamada played in those games (and played fine, by the way), they were decided by far more important players like Eze, Henderson, La Croix, Wharton, Sarr, and Mateta, most of whom are on a lot less money than Kamada, and will know it.

Similarly, his absence may have coincided with a poor run, rather than been the cause. As we have all debated on here, the squad seemed tired out by Europe, the loss of Eze hit hard, Mateta isn't what he was, and the new players haven't hit the ground running at all. I would say those are much more obvious reasons for a bad run than Kamada being out.

We aren't miles away from problems with the wage bill at all. Before the recent signings it had come down from 73% to nearer 71%, but that is still higher than the 70% that European regs require. It can all be done, I'm sure, but there isn't too much wriggle room and it is an important consideration regarding Kamada. Again, it seems telling that the club have apparently not offered him a new deal. At least not yet, anyway. If they thought he was good value for that sort of money in the context of the overall wage bill then surely they would have done so?

Ultimately, if you see him as a top player then of course the wages will seem reasonable one way or the other. I think he is very average indeed, and in that context its an awful lot of money that may well restrict us.

 

[pssguy]

But surely by definition he is that? A key performer in all of the big games last season, a noticeable drop off in our performances when he's not in the team... at some point isn't it just objectively true that he's an important player for us?

He is only one of 11 players. Over the period he has been out of the team, overall has been very weakened, playing a host of games with turmoil at the club thanks to Glasner's situation. Matetars inability to find the net has been much more influential on our form. You could hardly say that Guehi has been the problem because we have had better results since he left. The only players that have clearly significantly impacted the team because of their absence in recent years would be, in my opinion, Zaha and Olise. Kamada is a more expensive version of Joe Ledley

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Without us going round in circles, again, its the opinion of yourself and others that he was a key performer in all of the big games last season. Clearly plenty of us feel otherwise.

For me, whilst Kamada played in those games (and played fine, by the way), they were decided by far more important players like Eze, Henderson, La Croix, Wharton, Sarr, and Mateta, most of whom are on a lot less money than Kamada, and will know it.

Similarly, his absence may have coincided with a poor run, rather than been the cause. As we have all debated on here, the squad seemed tired out by Europe, the loss of Eze hit hard, Mateta isn't what he was, and the new players haven't hit the ground running at all. I would say those are much more obvious reasons for a bad run than Kamada being out.

We aren't miles away from problems with the wage bill at all. Before the recent signings it had come down from 73% to nearer 71%, but that is still higher than the 70% that European regs require. It can all be done, I'm sure, but there isn't too much wriggle room and it is an important consideration regarding Kamada. Again, it seems telling that the club have apparently not offered him a new deal. At least not yet, anyway. If they thought he was good value for that sort of money in the context of the overall wage bill then surely they would have done so?

Ultimately, if you see him as a top player then of course the wages will seem reasonable one way or the other. I think he is very average indeed, and in that context its an awful lot of money that may well restrict us.

I think most people acknowledge he was instrumental in the semi-final and final - to say he was 'fine' feels unfair to me, but as you say, it's a game of opinions.

Of course there are plenty of reasons for our poor form, but Kamada's absence is also clearly a contributor.

I just completely disagree with the 'awful lot of money' stuff - it's not at all an awful lot of money at all, relative to our level. Kamada earns less than Nketiah, who also came with a large transfer fee, and yet his salary never seems to be subject to the same scrutiny as Kamada, despite Nketiah being a far less important member of the squad.

Whilst it's early days, Johnson will be on over £100k and has done absolutely nothing to justify that so far.

I only ever seem to hear about wages when it comes to Kamada.

 

[MrRobbo]

Surely the teamsheets say so? Not to mention the wage slips.

He played exclusively in the middle, for Lazio, Frankfurt, internationally. Mostly as an 8, but sometimes as a 6 or a 10.

I'm not sure he's ever played as a wide forward or a wide 10. Whatever you want to call it. Clearly isnt the right profile for that role.

He moved about a lot positionally in the first couple of months. Sarr played a couple of games up top, Eze was injured for a few. IMO because he was the least worst option, and could do a job. Btu was clear that wasn't his position.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

I think most people acknowledge he was instrumental in the semi-final and final - to say he was 'fine' feels unfair to me, but as you say, it's a game of opinions.

Of course there are plenty of reasons for our poor form, but Kamada's absence is also clearly a contributor.

I just completely disagree with the 'awful lot of money' stuff - it's not at all an awful lot of money at all, relative to our level. Kamada earns less than Nketiah, who also came with a large transfer fee, and yet his salary never seems to be subject to the same scrutiny as Kamada, despite Nketiah being a far less important member of the squad.

Whilst it's early days, Johnson will be on over £100k and has done absolutely nothing to justify that so far.

I only ever seem to hear about wages when it comes to Kamada.

But it isn't Nketiah or Johnson whose contract is expiring, so whether they are worth a new deal on the same or similar money isn't before us at the moment.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

But it isn't Nketiah or Johnson whose contract is expiring, so whether they are worth a new deal on the same or similar money isn't before us at the moment.

The Kamada wages stuff pre-dates his contract expiring or any discussion of a renewal - it's a stick he's been bashed with pretty consistently since he joined.

Nketiah, despite costing far more and contributing far less... it is rarely mentioned.

 

[NMPalace]

Said who?

Haven't heard that comment since my school days!!

His first 20 odd appearances for us were almost exclusively as a 10 and it is fair to say he underperformed. The odd time he played in CM he struggled (West Ham as a sub and 2nd half v Fulham when he got sent off).

He was still playing as a No10 in Feb last year, albeit predominantly to cover for Eze when injured.

He played reasonably advanced for Frankfurt, when with OG, and i believe he plays a similar position for Japan.

If you want to be pedantic and say he is more of a No 8 than a 10, i would point out in the OG formation we don't really have that position. It's two 6's and two 10s.

 

[Eaglecoops]

I’d rather throw £100k a week at Curtis Jones than Kamada.

 

[silvertop]

I think fundamentally I, and it seems many others on here, just don't see that he is one of our most important players.

That might not weigh very much in itself, as we all have opinions, but what does the market suggest?

When we got him on a free it didn't seem as if we were fighting off competition from big clubs to get him. Similarly, there is very little to suggest big clubs are interested in signing him come the summer. That doesn't mean he isn't on anyone's radar at all, but if he really was one of our best players then surely by now there would be all sorts of links and rumours, and someone would have offered money in January to pre-empt the scramble in summer? Look what happened with Geuhi - that's surely what it looks like when one of our best players is running his contract down. None of that has happened with Kamada. Surely that shows that the market doesn't think too highly of him?

Even if we are not big wage payers compared to others, we still have to balance the books, including wages to turnover ratios. Even if £105k pw is common enough across the league, its still a lot for Palace.

We could certainly spend £20m trying to replace him and be no better off, but we could also be noticeably better off for it, with a younger player on less money with a higher sale value. Critically, we could get someone better. All transfers are a gamble, but our odds of success are decent when it comes to upgrading on Kamada. Replacing Olise, Eze etc is mission impossible. Not so with Kamada.

Of course, that all comes down to how highly you rate the player to begin with, and we each see these things differently. As above though, it doesn't seem like the club or player are fighting big clubs off at the moment, and that feels a bit telling.

Said before, say again. Kamada is the new Puncheon. Dreadful. But take him out of the team and we suffer badly???

He does jigsaw fit into a OG team. I suspect he may go with OG when he goes.

 

[Eagleman13]

The Kamada wages stuff pre-dates his contract expiring or any discussion of a renewal - it's a stick he's been bashed with pretty consistently since he joined.

Nketiah, despite costing far more and contributing far less... it is rarely mentioned.

That's because he's almost always injured, so no point talking about him.

 

[MrRobbo]

Haven't heard that comment since my school days!!

His first 20 odd appearances for us were almost exclusively as a 10 and it is fair to say he underperformed. The odd time he played in CM he struggled (West Ham as a sub and 2nd half v Fulham when he got sent off).

He was still playing as a No10 in Feb last year, albeit predominantly to cover for Eze when injured.

He played reasonably advanced for Frankfurt, when with OG, and i believe he plays a similar position for Japan.

If you want to be pedantic and say he is more of a No 8 than a 10, i would point out in the OG formation we don't really have that position. It's two 6's and two 10s.

I wouldn't say its pedantic, its factual. He's never played a wide role. Liturally never.

The normal, universally understood 10, is a central attacking midfielder. We dont play with one of those, we play with 2 wide forwards, that Glasner, for some reason calls wide 10's. They are not chalk dust wingers, but they are not central players. They have completely different playing characteristics (would anyone play Sarr in CM?!)

Its turned into a bit of a silly debate, most fans think he's next to useless. But will concede that he was good in the biggest game in our history. Our manager clearly disagrees and starts him when available. Historically he's been starting in every team he's ever been at.

They think he cant pass, cant tackle, doesnt run and is paid too much and cant wait to see the back of him.

I suspect if we drew a Venn diagram, they would also be the ones that wrote JP off, wanted Glasner sacked have written Pino off, will write Johnson off within a couple of games, and generally have absolutely no patience. Expect ever player to be perfect every game.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

The Kamada wages stuff pre-dates his contract expiring or any discussion of a renewal - it's a stick he's been bashed with pretty consistently since he joined.

Nketiah, despite costing far more and contributing far less... it is rarely mentioned.

If he has been bashed with the wages stick at all it is surely because, to very many of us it seems, he has rarely justified the salary. So long as nobody gets too personal about it, I don't see anything unfair in that.

If he was on 30-50k pw I would think he was better value, but still an average player, and that we should try and get a better one instead. That, for me, is the main thing. On top of that, his actual wage is of course a factor in whether he is seen as a success, and whether we should try to keep him. Seems fair to me.

I don't see the benefit in comparing Kamada's salary to anyone else's. As it happens, I think the cost of Nketiah and Johnson is mentioned plenty, and not in flattering terms. The point is though that even if we end up getting terrible value for money from both those players, that wouldn't justify also getting poor wage value from Kamada for a few more years.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

They think he cant pass, cant tackle, doesnt run and is paid too much and cant wait to see the back of him.

Personally I wouldn't say any of those things apart from that he is overpaid. I just think his passing, tackling etc is all of a very average standard indeed, so much so that, along with his age, limited sell on value, and wages, it seems a better bet to try and replace him rather than retain him.

I don't say that lightly - I appreciate that a new signing will likely cost a fee, taking the overall cost beyond that of keeping Kamada. It could still be better value overall, though, if the new player is an improvement.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

If he has been bashed with the wages stick at all it is surely because, to very many of us it seems, he has rarely justified the salary. So long as nobody gets too personal about it, I don't see anything unfair in that.

If he was on 30-50k pw I would think he was better value, but still an average player, and that we should try and get a better one instead. That, for me, is the main thing. On top of that, his actual wage is of course a factor in whether he is seen as a success, and whether we should try to keep him. Seems fair to me.

I don't see the benefit in comparing Kamada's salary to anyone else's. As it happens, I think the cost of Nketiah and Johnson is mentioned plenty, and not in flattering terms. The point is though that even if we end up getting terrible value for money from both those players, that wouldn't justify also getting poor wage value from Kamada for a few more years.

Value is relative so absolutely you have to compare to other player’s salaries - that’s the only way to frame the discussion at all.

No decent player signs a premier league contract on £30k a week these days - that’s absolute fantasy stuff and in my opinion speaks to why you think we are overpaying Kamada.

The idea that we could recruit a better player than Kamada offering £30-50k a week is incredibly unrealistic.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

Value is relative so absolutely you have to compare to other player’s salaries - that’s the only way to frame the discussion at all.

No decent player signs a premier league contract on £30k a week these days - that’s absolute fantasy stuff and in my opinion speaks to why you think we are overpaying Kamada.

The idea that we could recruit a better player than Kamada offering £30-50k a week is incredibly unrealistic.

Value is indeed relative, but cannot be assessed only in the context of other poor-value players. Go back to that earlier link I posted. If its even vaguely correct then Kamada is on three times what Wharton is on. Five times Devenny who, average though he himself is, would do not much worse in centre mid than Kamada in my view. Kamadas wage is getting on for twice what Mateta, Hughes, Richards, Michell, reportedly get. Half again what Lerma, Sarr, and Munoz get. Most of these significantly outperform him.

In that relative context, Kamada is very poor value for wages.

It also shows that the idea we could attract a better player than Kamada for half his wage is far from unrealistic. We have examples in our squad.

I am not suggesting we replace Kamada with a cheap option just to save the wages. I am suggesting we get better value. Happy for Palace to give someone £105k pw if they can afford it, and if he is worth that wage. Kamada hasn't been, and I would be very surprised if anyone in a serious league offered him that sort of money come the summer.

Anyway, this has been an interesting discussion, so cheers.