Israel v Hamas

[DanH]

You posted a Guardian article that claimed the bomb was a heavy 500lb and it's use a possible a war crime. I said it is typically used by militaries in the same scenario.

It shows you soak up crap from the Guardian without questioning it.

Then for some reason you bring up Bob Vylan and Kneecap?

Just pointing out the ludicrousness of what people have been getting angry over in the last few days.

If you’re more angry about what a couple of small time music acts said at a festival than Israel’s continued approach to this war then that’s for yourself to reconcile.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Just pointing out the ludicrousness of what people have been getting angry over in the last few days.

If you’re more angry about what a couple of small time music acts said at a festival than Israel’s continued approach to this war then that’s for yourself to reconcile.

You're dodging the point with 'whataboutism'.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Our of interest, are you anti-war?

Or believe that air strikes should not be used in wars?

I mean, is anyone pro-war..?

But no, I'm not naïve enough to believe wars can always be avoided - I just don't believe it being a war gives militaries license to do what they want, or that because war is bad we just have to accept everything that happens within it - it's a lazy argument.

In any conflict there will be some poor decisions, mistakes and in isolation conduct which will constitute war crimes - this was the case in Iraq, Afghanistan and pretty much every other modern conflict.

It is the volume and regularity with which Israel have done these things, as well as the language used by many of it's own government and representatives, which is very much out of the ordinary. To pretend it's not is just disingenuous.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Implying I'm some sort of terrorist and Israel facilitating a major attack on its own people - scraping the barrel, as ever.

No.

Implying that you are capable of knowing what other people are thinking. Which seems unlikely. If true I suggest you enter “Britains Got Talent”. You would win and make millions.

The other questions why Israel with all its superior intelligence and surveillance capabilities failed to be prepared for Oct 7. I suggested one possible scenario. You are free to tell us why that cannot be true and suggest another.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

I mean, is anyone pro-war..?

But no, I'm not naïve enough to believe wars can always be avoided - I just don't believe it being a war gives militaries license to do what they want, or that because war is bad we just have to accept everything that happens within it - it's a lazy argument.

In any conflict there will be some poor decisions, mistakes and in isolation conduct which will constitute war crimes - this was the case in Iraq, Afghanistan and pretty much every other modern conflict.

It is the volume and regularity with which Israel have done these things, as well as the language used by many of it's own government and representatives, which is very much out of the ordinary. To pretend it's not is just disingenuous.

Easy to say when you aren't involved in it.

This is another ideals v reality argument.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Easy to say when you aren't involved in it.

This is another ideals v reality argument.

I don't agree.

Most advanced militaries manage to conduct their operations without half the reports and allegations as have been made against the IDF - there are always some reports of bad conduct, but it's never at this scale.

You factor in the reports of the aid and human rights agencies, the reports of the international doctors, the blockade on journalists, the blockade on aid reaching civilians, the reports of civilians being slaughtered at aid distribution sites and refugee camps - these are not 'normal' happenings, even in the context of war.

There's a reason the world has reacted the way it has - there's a reason these agencies and bodies who are well used to warzones and the 'realities of war' are so forthright in their condemnation.

There is a very deliberate attempt to convince people that what we're seeing is just par for the course in times of conflict... it's not.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

I don't agree.

Most advanced militaries manage to conduct their operations without half the reports and allegations as have been made against the IDF - there are always some reports of bad conduct, but it's never at this scale.

You factor in the reports of the aid and human rights agencies, the reports of the international doctors, the blockade on journalists, the blockade on aid reaching civilians, the reports of civilians being slaughtered at aid distribution sites and refugee camps - these are not 'normal' happenings, even in the context of war.

HAMAS have been shooting their own people at aid centres, so that gives you an idea of the type of enemy Israel is up against.
Bleating about war crimes from your sofa is very easy.

Do you call the killing of civilians in war a war crime in every example?

Atrocities are part and parcel of warfare. It's ugly, it's horrible, and it is certainly not some game for gentleman.
If this was a one sided turkey shoot, I'd be on your side on this, but it is far more complicated than that.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

HAMAS have been shooting their own people at aid centres, so that gives you an idea of the type of enemy Israel is up against.
Bleating about war crimes from your sofa is very easy.

Do you call the killing of civilians in war a war crime in every example?

Atrocities are part and parcel of warfare. It's ugly, it's horrible, and it is certainly not some game for gentleman.
If this was a one sided turkey shoot, I'd be on your side on this, but it is far more complicated than that.

I've acknowledged exactly that already, but the regularity and volume of atrocities that Israel are committing is not 'normal' even in warfare.

 

[georgenorman]

No.

Implying that you are capable of knowing what other people are thinking. Which seems unlikely. If true I suggest you enter “Britains Got Talent”. You would win and make millions.

The other questions why Israel with all its superior intelligence and surveillance capabilities failed to be prepared for Oct 7. I suggested one possible scenario. You are free to tell us why that cannot be true and suggest another.

Trying to link me with terrorism is clear and plain to see.
I have no interest in making millions, I am very comfortable with my financial situation.
Khaled Mashal, a major Hamas leader,stated, “We know very well the consequences of our operation on October 7 . . . No nation is liberated without sacrifices.”
History is littered with such events, 9/11, 7/7, Barbarossa, Pearl Harbour, Atomic Bombing of Japan ....
Israel possibly had reports of planned attacks, no doubt for years they have had reports of planned attacks on an almost daily basis.

 

[HKOwen]

I mean, is anyone pro-war..?

But no, I'm not naïve enough to believe wars can always be avoided - I just don't believe it being a war gives militaries license to do what they want, or that because war is bad we just have to accept everything that happens within it - it's a lazy argument.

In any conflict there will be some poor decisions, mistakes and in isolation conduct which will constitute war crimes - this was the case in Iraq, Afghanistan and pretty much every other modern conflict.

It is the volume and regularity with which Israel have done these things, as well as the language used by many of it's own government and representatives, which is very much out of the ordinary. To pretend it's not is just disingenuous.

Hamas are pro-war

 

[Penge Eagle]

I mean, is anyone pro-war..?

But no, I'm not naïve enough to believe wars can always be avoided - I just don't believe it being a war gives militaries license to do what they want, or that because war is bad we just have to accept everything that happens within it - it's a lazy argument.

In any conflict there will be some poor decisions, mistakes and in isolation conduct which will constitute war crimes - this was the case in Iraq, Afghanistan and pretty much every other modern conflict.

It is the volume and regularity with which Israel have done these things, as well as the language used by many of it's own government and representatives, which is very much out of the ordinary. To pretend it's not is just disingenuous.

How many countries have over 20,000 rockets fired at their civilian population every year?

What kind of evil enemy deliberately embeds itself amongst civilians?

By a wide margin, Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria has been responsible for the deaths of far more Muslims than all Israeli military operations combined. Where were the Guardian story links on here? And every single Russia strike?

Pretending Israel is uniquely evil while ignoring the context, the provocation, and the global double standards isn’t a moral high ground - it’s a political choice dressed up as one.

 

[Penge Eagle]

I've acknowledged exactly that already, but the regularity and volume of atrocities that Israel are committing is not 'normal' even in warfare.

Do you have any data to support this?

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Trying to link me with terrorism is clear and plain to see.
I have no interest in making millions, I am very comfortable with my financial situation.
Khaled Mashal, a major Hamas leader,stated, “We know very well the consequences of our operation on October 7 . . . No nation is liberated without sacrifices.”
History is littered with such events, 9/11, 7/7, Barbarossa, Pearl Harbour, Atomic Bombing of Japan ....
Israel possibly had reports of planned attacks, no doubt for years they have had reports of planned attacks on an almost daily basis.

Thanks. You have proved what I asserted. That you think you are capable of seeing inside the heads of others.

You couldn’t make millions even if you wanted to. Bs on forums soon gets busted in real life.

Any Hamas commander saying anything should be regarded with both contempt and suspicion. Something I would have expected you to understand.

Trying to compare what happened on Oct 7 with such as 9/11, 7/7 or the atomic bombs in Japan is disingenuous at best.

9/11 was a failure of US counter intelligence and military preparedness for sure but that was over 20:years ago and lessons should have been learned.

7/7 was a random act of terrorism, not a coordinated mass attack demanding significant planning and execution.

Japan had no idea that the US were preparing such a mission and could have done nothing to prevent it anyway.

Israel has the most efficient intelligence service in the world. There can be no excuses but there might be reasons. They would be prepared for regular minor incidents. This was a major event which demanded significant planning, movement of people and equipment. It could not have gone unnoticed.

 

[georgenorman]

Thanks. You have proved what I asserted. That you think you are capable of seeing inside the heads of others.

You couldn’t make millions even if you wanted too. Bs on forums soon gets busted in real life.

Any Hamas commander saying anything should be regarded with both contempt and suspicion. Something I would have expected you to understand.

Trying to compare what happened on Oct 7 with such as 9/11, 7/7 or the atomic bombs in Japan is disingenuous at best.

9/11 was a failure of US counter intelligence and military preparedness for sure but that was over 20:years ago and lessons should have been learned.

7/7 was a random act of terrorism, not a coordinated mass attack demanding significant planning and execution.

Japan had no idea that the US were preparing such a mission and could have done nothing to prevent it anyway.

Israel has the most efficient intelligence service in the world. There can be no excuses but there might be reasons. They would be prepared for regular minor incidents. This was a major event which demanded significant planning, movement of people and equipment. It could not have gone unnoticed.

Dear me, you need to calm down. Oct 7 was Israel's 9/11.
By the way, the correct word is 'to' rather than 'too'.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

How many countries have over 20,000 rockets fired at their civilian population every year?

What kind of evil enemy deliberately embeds itself amongst civilians?

By a wide margin, Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria has been responsible for the deaths of far more Muslims than all Israeli military operations combined. Where were the Guardian story links on here? And every single Russia strike?

Pretending Israel is uniquely evil while ignoring the context, the provocation, and the global double standards isn’t a moral high ground - it’s a political choice dressed up as one.

You just don’t get it do you?

Stop justifying what Israel are doing by reference to others. Bad things aren’t made better by other things being worse.

Concentrate on the now. Assad was toppled. That’s done. Maybe the replacement regime will prove to be worse. That can be spoken about separately. This subject is Israel v Hamas.

That Hamas are evil is not in dispute. Put it aside and deal with the criticism of Israel’s approach. Try recommending they cease firing and test whether Hamas stop responding.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Dear me, you need to calm down. Oct 7 was Israel's 9/11.
By the way, the correct word is 'to' rather than 'too'.

I am perfectly calm. Just having a cup of tea between gardening duties to be followed by 2 games of bowls, one at 1.30 and the other at 6.00. No stress here.

In what way do you think Oct 7 resembles 9/11? I can see one. Bush used 9/11 as an excuse to attack Iraq. Have Israel done the same then?

Typos happen. Rather them than bs.

 

[Penge Eagle]

You just don’t get it do you?

Stop justifying what Israel are doing by reference to others. Bad things aren’t made better by other things being worse.

Concentrate on the now. Assad was toppled. That’s done. Maybe the replacement regime will prove to be worse. That can be spoken about separately. This subject is Israel v Hamas.

That Hamas are evil is not in dispute. Put it aside and deal with the criticism of Israel’s approach. Try recommending they cease firing and test whether Hamas stop responding.

No you don't get it. You're demanding moral clarity while ignoring moral consistency. You conveniently erase the past and global context when it suits your argument. If Hamas didn't exist, there would be peace. If Israel stopped defending itself, there would be slaughter. That’s the difference.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

How many countries have over 20,000 rockets fired at their civilian population every year?

What kind of evil enemy deliberately embeds itself amongst civilians?

By a wide margin, Bashar al-Assad's regime in Syria has been responsible for the deaths of far more Muslims than all Israeli military operations combined. Where were the Guardian story links on here? And every single Russia strike?

Pretending Israel is uniquely evil while ignoring the context, the provocation, and the global double standards isn’t a moral high ground - it’s a political choice dressed up as one.

How many countries occupy foreign land and kill dozens of foreign civilians every year? Let's not pretend Israel are the peaceful neighbours in normal times.

Neither Bashar's Syria nor Russia were/are allies of the UK, nor do we support them militarily - Israel should absolutely be subject to the sanctions and exclusions that Russia face.

I don't pretend Israel is uniquely evil (you could argue their conduct is quite unique amongst Western democracies) , nor do I ignore the context - I just don't agree with you that the context remotely justifies their actions (and nor do most of the world).

 

[georgenorman]

I am perfectly calm. Just having a cup of tea between gardening duties to be followed by 2 games of bowls, one at 1.30 and the other at 6.00. No stress here.

In what way do you think Oct 7 resembles 9/11? I can see one. Bush used 9/11 as an excuse to attack Iraq. Have Israel done the same then?

Typos happen. Rather them than bs.

Israel have attacked Iraq? That's been kept quiet.

 

[Penge Eagle]

How many countries occupy foreign land and kill dozens of foreign civilians every year? Let's not pretend Israel are the peaceful neighbours in normal times.

Neither Bashar's Syria nor Russia were/are allies of the UK, nor do we support them militarily - Israel should absolutely be subject to the sanctions and exclusions that Russia face.

I don't pretend Israel is uniquely evil (you could argue their conduct is quite unique amongst Western democracies) , nor do I ignore the context - I just don't agree with you that the context remotely justifies their actions (and nor do most of the world).

Only Israel? The UK, US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, Iran, France, Russia have all had cross border military conflicts. Sanctions for all of them?

The big difference? Israel is responding to a terrorist group that provoked it and has openly said it wants it wiped off the map.