Israel v Hamas

[HKOwen]

The same incident, reported a different way ,..
"Thirty-one people have been killed and more than 150 injured by Israeli tanks and gunfire near an aid distribution centre in Rafah, southern Gaza, the Hamas-run health ministry and medics say.

Mohammed Ghareeb, a journalist in Rafah, told the BBC Palestinians had gathered near the aid centre run by the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF) when Israeli tanks approached and opened fire on the crowd."

The journalist referred to the dead being " martyrs ", hardly non partisan language. It may or may not have happened and if it did and it is shown the IDF opened fire on people doing nothing more than lining up for food then that is a war crime, simples. Experience has shown things in Gaza are seldom simple and often not as first reports indicate.

Anyone who still thinks the IDF were responsible for the hospital hit by a stray missile fired from within Gaza need not bother to read this.

 

[Penge Eagle]

The report by Jeremy Bowen this morning was pretty specific. He said that whilst direct reporting is impossible because Israel won’t permit it, the testimony from a British doctor working in a Gaza Hospital that received some of the casualties seemed unequivocal. The injuries they saw could only have been done by the IDF, for only they possess such firepower, and the timing they arrived at the hospital fitted with the reported incident.

Jeremy Bowen!! He is an activist, not a journalist and should be fired from the BBC and never employed again.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Just because I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself, it doesn't mean I support every action it takes. It's absolutely right to hold Israel and Hamas or any military accountable. But questioning the humanity of anyone who still supports Israel’s actions just shuts down the dialogue.

Your claim that there is "considerable evidence" of systematic sniping of civilians by the IDF is overstated without any supporting evidence. I don't think you should assume that every military action is conducted in bad faith. Urban warfare brings up complex challenges and it's the Palestinians who ultimately suffer from Hamas operating in civilian areas.

Can you highlight a time in the last 18 months you didn't support an action Israel took? Happy to be corrected, but I don't recall seeing one such example, despite more atrocities than I can count.

I don't think civilians, including children, showing up with sniper holes in them is a particularly 'complex challenge'.

I see the latest reported war crime is the fault of the journalist who reported on it in your view - there's a shock.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

The journalist referred to the dead being " martyrs ", hardly non partisan language. It may or may not have happened and if it did and it is shown the IDF opened fire on people doing nothing more than lining up for food then that is a war crime, simples. Experience has shown things in Gaza are seldom simple and often not as first reports indicate.

Anyone who still thinks the IDF were responsible for the hospital hit by a stray missile fired from within Gaza need not bother to read this.

This incident is still very contested - it's certainly not conclusive that it was a stray missile from Gaza; Forensic Architecture

 

[ASCPFC]

Can you highlight a time in the last 18 months you didn't support an action Israel took? Happy to be corrected, but I don't recall seeing one such example, despite more atrocities than I can count.

I don't think civilians, including children, showing up with sniper holes in them is a particularly 'complex challenge'.

I see the latest reported war crime is the fault of the journalist who reported on it in your view - there's a shock.

There has been a long history of children being used as fighters and suicide bombers in Palestine hasn't there?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

There has been a long history of children being used as fighters and suicide bombers in Palestine hasn't there?

But barely in the last two decades, even according to Israeli reports from what I can see.

There is however, plenty of recent reports such as the below:


In February 2024, an American doctor returning from the Gaza Strip wrote an op-ed in the Los Angeles Times stating that she had witnessed children being deliberately targeted by Israeli snipers, writing, "On one occasion, a handful of children, all about ages 5 to 8, were carried to the emergency room by their parents. All had single sniper shots to the head... None of these children survived. "A Canadian doctor returning from a week in Gaza stated she had seen crimes against humanity, including small children "dying of hunger, bombs, sniper shots."

Israeli drone footage released in March 2024 showed Israeli snipers killing an unarmed boy in Jabalia.

In April 2024, doctors said they were seeing "a steady stream of children, elderly people and others who were clearly not combatants with single bullet wounds to the head or chest.

Dr. Mark Perlmutter, an American doctor working in Gaza, stated Israeli snipers were targeting children, stating, "No toddler gets shot twice by mistake by the 'world's best sniper.' And they're dead-center shots.

In August 2024, an American doctor returning from Gaza stated, "We had kids shot in the chest and shot in the head – in other words, clearly deliberate, clearly targeted"

In October 2024, The New York Times reported compiled testimony from 44 doctors, nurses, and paramedics who treated multiple cases of preteen children with gunshot wounds to the head or chest in Gaza. Inquiries sent to the IDF regarding the experiences of these health care workers received a statement from a spokesperson that did not directly confirm whether investigations into the shootings of preteen children had been conducted or if any soldiers faced disciplinary action for firing at them.

In response to claims alleging that the report was based on "fabricated evidence", The New York Times issued a statement defending the integrity of the piece, emphasizing that it had undergone rigorous editing and verification, including consultations with experts and the use of supporting photographs, which they deemed "too horrific for publication."

 

[DanH]

But barely in the last two decades, even according to Israeli reports from what I can see.

There is however, plenty of recent reports such as the below:


In February 2024, an American doctor returning from the Gaza Strip wrote an op-ed in the Los Angeles Times stating that she had witnessed children being deliberately targeted by Israeli snipers, writing, "On one occasion, a handful of children, all about ages 5 to 8, were carried to the emergency room by their parents. All had single sniper shots to the head... None of these children survived. "A Canadian doctor returning from a week in Gaza stated she had seen crimes against humanity, including small children "dying of hunger, bombs, sniper shots."

Israeli drone footage released in March 2024 showed Israeli snipers killing an unarmed boy in Jabalia.

In April 2024, doctors said they were seeing "a steady stream of children, elderly people and others who were clearly not combatants with single bullet wounds to the head or chest.

Dr. Mark Perlmutter, an American doctor working in Gaza, stated Israeli snipers were targeting children, stating, "No toddler gets shot twice by mistake by the 'world's best sniper.' And they're dead-center shots.

In August 2024, an American doctor returning from Gaza stated, "We had kids shot in the chest and shot in the head – in other words, clearly deliberate, clearly targeted"

In October 2024, The New York Times reported compiled testimony from 44 doctors, nurses, and paramedics who treated multiple cases of preteen children with gunshot wounds to the head or chest in Gaza. Inquiries sent to the IDF regarding the experiences of these health care workers received a statement from a spokesperson that did not directly confirm whether investigations into the shootings of preteen children had been conducted or if any soldiers faced disciplinary action for firing at them.

In response to claims alleging that the report was based on "fabricated evidence", The New York Times issued a statement defending the integrity of the piece, emphasizing that it had undergone rigorous editing and verification, including consultations with experts and the use of supporting photographs, which they deemed "too horrific for publication."

Hell of a lot of activists there.

 

[ASCPFC]

But barely in the last two decades, even according to Israeli reports from what I can see.

There is however, plenty of recent reports such as the below:


In February 2024, an American doctor returning from the Gaza Strip wrote an op-ed in the Los Angeles Times stating that she had witnessed children being deliberately targeted by Israeli snipers, writing, "On one occasion, a handful of children, all about ages 5 to 8, were carried to the emergency room by their parents. All had single sniper shots to the head... None of these children survived. "A Canadian doctor returning from a week in Gaza stated she had seen crimes against humanity, including small children "dying of hunger, bombs, sniper shots."

Israeli drone footage released in March 2024 showed Israeli snipers killing an unarmed boy in Jabalia.

In April 2024, doctors said they were seeing "a steady stream of children, elderly people and others who were clearly not combatants with single bullet wounds to the head or chest.

Dr. Mark Perlmutter, an American doctor working in Gaza, stated Israeli snipers were targeting children, stating, "No toddler gets shot twice by mistake by the 'world's best sniper.' And they're dead-center shots.

In August 2024, an American doctor returning from Gaza stated, "We had kids shot in the chest and shot in the head – in other words, clearly deliberate, clearly targeted"

In October 2024, The New York Times reported compiled testimony from 44 doctors, nurses, and paramedics who treated multiple cases of preteen children with gunshot wounds to the head or chest in Gaza. Inquiries sent to the IDF regarding the experiences of these health care workers received a statement from a spokesperson that did not directly confirm whether investigations into the shootings of preteen children had been conducted or if any soldiers faced disciplinary action for firing at them.

In response to claims alleging that the report was based on "fabricated evidence", The New York Times issued a statement defending the integrity of the piece, emphasizing that it had undergone rigorous editing and verification, including consultations with experts and the use of supporting photographs, which they deemed "too horrific for publication."

I can actually imagine it happening in isolated cases as these things sometimes do in conflicts. I can't imagine it being a policy, but I can imagine a few soldiers going rogue.
I also can still imagine children being used by Islamic radicals like Hamas. As they have been previously. I don't really see why it would have stopped now but happened before. I wouldn't particularly want to see the photos as I don't like that kind of thing. I've seen enough in real life to know.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I can actually imagine it happening in isolated cases as these things sometimes do in conflicts. I can't imagine it being a policy, but I can imagine a few soldiers going rogue.
I also can still imagine children being used by Islamic radicals like Hamas. As they have been previously. I don't really see why it would have stopped now but happened before. I wouldn't particularly want to see the photos as I don't like that kind of thing. I've seen enough in real life to know.

It doesn't seem that isolated - there have been complaints about Israel's treatment of Palestinian children for decades;

"
In 2012, Breaking The Silence, an organization founded by former Israeli soldiers whose purpose is to expose alleged abuses committed by the IDF, released a booklet of witness reports written by more than 30 former Israeli soldiers. These reports document Palestinian children being beaten, intimidated, humiliated, verbally abused and injured by Israeli soldiers. Eran Efrati, a former IDF commander on the West Bank, has said that ill-treatment of arrested children is routine. He himself admits to having arrested children aged 11 and over as though they were adults, with handcuffs and blindfolds:

"When the kid is sitting there in the base, I didn't do it, but nobody is thinking of him as a kid, you know—if there is someone blindfolded and handcuffed, he's probably done something really bad. It's OK to slap him, it's OK to spit on him, it's OK to kick him sometimes. It doesn't really matter."
"

Certainly Hamas would not be above using children, as they have done previously, but that should not detract from the reports made by medical professionals and journalists over many decades as to Israel's treatment of Palestinian children.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Can you highlight a time in the last 18 months you didn't support an action Israel took? Happy to be corrected, but I don't recall seeing one such example, despite more atrocities than I can count.

I don't think civilians, including children, showing up with sniper holes in them is a particularly 'complex challenge'.

I see the latest reported war crime is the fault of the journalist who reported on it in your view - there's a shock.

I was privately critical of the IDF after a number of Christians were killed in a strike on a church at the start of the conflict. But there has since been no verified evidence that the IDF deliberately targeted them because of their faith. Possibly negligence, but not intent as human error does play a part. This is the problem with commenting on "atrocities" so quickly after the event. It's difficult to verify information with the full facts to make a sensible judgment at the time. These things need analysis, not a loyalty test.

I am pretty sure that after this war is over, investigations will reveal that Israel were not perfect and some of its soldiers may have even committed war crimes which is not uncommon in conflicts. It would be the same for Ukraine. To dismiss the context of civilians dying as "not complex" doesn't excuse atrocities but undermines the challenges of urban warfare in high-pressure situations. If you're a young IDF soldier and a group of civilians walk out of a building and a Hamas fighter in that group pulls out a weapon to shoot you, how do you respond?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I was privately critical of the IDF after a number of Christians were killed in a strike on a church at the start of the conflict. But there has since been no verified evidence that the IDF deliberately targeted them because of their faith. Possibly negligence, but not intent as human error does play a part. This is the problem with commenting on "atrocities" so quickly after the event. It's difficult to verify information with the full facts to make a sensible judgment at the time. These things need analysis, not a loyalty test.

I am pretty sure that after this war is over, investigations will reveal that Israel were not perfect and some of its soldiers may have even committed war crimes which is not uncommon in conflicts. It would be the same for Ukraine. To dismiss the context of civilians dying as "not complex" doesn't excuse atrocities but undermines the challenges of urban warfare in high-pressure situations. If you're a young IDF soldier and a group of civilians walk out of a building and a Hamas fighter in that group pulls out a weapon to shoot you, how do you respond?

In which case I would seriously challenge your suggestion that you are holding the IDF to any sort of account - that you can't find one example in the last 18 months which you think is worthy of criticism suggests to me that the tipping point for your condemnation is miles beyond what is realistic.

I am pretty sure that after this is over, and if they are ever allowed, investigations would reveal some of the worst atrocities in recent history.

I am not suggesting that there is no complexity around urban warfare, but I don't think regular reports of children being found with sniper holes in their head and chest is at all complex.

 

[Penge Eagle]

In which case I would seriously challenge your suggestion that you are holding the IDF to any sort of account - that you can't find one example in the last 18 months which you think is worthy of criticism suggests to me that the tipping point for your condemnation is miles beyond what is realistic.

I am pretty sure that after this is over, and if they are ever allowed, investigations would reveal some of the worst atrocities in recent history.

I am not suggesting that there is no complexity around urban warfare, but I don't think regular reports of children being found with sniper holes in their head and chest is at all complex.

Allegations must be taken seriously but they are not proof of systematic war crimes. The IDF has prosecuted soldiers before for misconduct and rightly so if crimes have been committed. But you have to allow due process not expect to act like judge and juror in real time.

 

[ASCPFC]

Eight burned after man targets crowd in 'terror attack' in Colorado

EIGHT people have been hospitalised after a man shouting “free Palestine” targeted a crowd with Molotov cocktails in a “terror attack” in Colorado. The suspect, identif…

www.thesun.co.uk

Whilst this continues there will be more of this. A lot more, I suspect.

 

[eaglesdare]

Eight burned after man targets crowd in 'terror attack' in Colorado

EIGHT people have been hospitalised after a man shouting “free Palestine” targeted a crowd with Molotov cocktails in a “terror attack” in Colorado. The suspect, identif…

www.thesun.co.uk

Whilst this continues there will be more of this. A lot more, I suspect.

I wonder will the Pro Hamas lot condemn this awful attack.

 

[HKOwen]

This incident is still very contested - it's certainly not conclusive that it was a stray missile from Gaza; Forensic Architecture

JHFC, there is audio of the terrorists who fired it, never mind

Your source is a bunch of anti Israeli activists at Goldsmiths

If you consider that " very contested " then there's no hope

It's like asking Starmer to give an unbiased opinion on Farage, risible

 

[DanH]

I wonder will the Pro Hamas lot condemn this awful attack.

‘Pro Hamas’. Really are an unserious poster.

Of course this is awful. An idiot harming completely innocent people who will hopefully go to prison for a long, long time. Exactly the same as the person who killed the two innocent people outside the museum who will hopefully not see the outside world again.

 

[HKOwen]

I was privately critical of the IDF after a number of Christians were killed in a strike on a church at the start of the conflict. But there has since been no verified evidence that the IDF deliberately targeted them because of their faith. Possibly negligence, but not intent as human error does play a part. This is the problem with commenting on "atrocities" so quickly after the event. It's difficult to verify information with the full facts to make a sensible judgment at the time. These things need analysis, not a loyalty test.

I am pretty sure that after this war is over, investigations will reveal that Israel were not perfect and some of its soldiers may have even committed war crimes which is not uncommon in conflicts. It would be the same for Ukraine. To dismiss the context of civilians dying as "not complex" doesn't excuse atrocities but undermines the challenges of urban warfare in high-pressure situations. If you're a young IDF soldier and a group of civilians walk out of a building and a Hamas fighter in that group pulls out a weapon to shoot you, how do you respond?

This is well written and I agree with it except any IDF soldier, not just the young.

It's difficult when Hamas are such Boy Scouts

36 children murdered Oct 7th, that's face to face by the terrorists, not from shells or missiles

 

[CPFCSaturn]

JHFC, there is audio of the terrorists who fired it, never mind

Your source is a bunch of anti Israeli activists at Goldsmiths

If you consider that " very contested " then there's no hope

It's like asking Starmer to give an unbiased opinion on Farage, risible

And your source is the IDF...

If you consider that unbiased then there's no hope.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

‘Pro Hamas’. Really are an unserious poster.

Of course this is awful. An idiot harming completely innocent people who will hopefully go to prison for a long, long time. Exactly the same as the person who killed the two innocent people outside the museum who will hopefully not see the outside world again.

You look at all the reports of IDF atrocities over the last few days and not one condemnation from any of them - 18 months into a genocide and they're still tying themselves in knots trying to justify it.

And then they have the gall to try and take a moral high ground when violence occurs the other way.

Shameless tabloid trolls.

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

I was privately critical of the IDF after a number of Christians were killed in a strike on a church at the start of the conflict. But there has since been no verified evidence that the IDF deliberately targeted them because of their faith. Possibly negligence, but not intent as human error does play a part. This is the problem with commenting on "atrocities" so quickly after the event. It's difficult to verify information with the full facts to make a sensible judgment at the time. These things need analysis, not a loyalty test.

I am pretty sure that after this war is over, investigations will reveal that Israel were not perfect and some of its soldiers may have even committed war crimes which is not uncommon in conflicts. It would be the same for Ukraine. To dismiss the context of civilians dying as "not complex" doesn't excuse atrocities but undermines the challenges of urban warfare in high-pressure situations. If you're a young IDF soldier and a group of civilians walk out of a building and a Hamas fighter in that group pulls out a weapon to shoot you, how do you respond?

I would call in for air support to carpet bomb the whole town to oblivion.