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Israel v Hamas

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Forest Hillbilly

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Location
in a hidey-hole
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Wales
So, the old thread has gone.
To kick things off in an easy-going way, I'll start with the statement: "When Israel behaves the way it does, and then they wonder why nobody likes the Jews".

Thankfully a ceasefire might be close and then aid might get to the deserving Palestinian civilians who had nothing to do with this.
 
These Palestinians who have nothing to do with this have a government that wants the annihilation of the state next door.
 
Forest Hillbilly said:
So, the old thread has gone.
To kick things off in an easy-going way, I'll start with the statement: "When Israel behaves the way it does, and then they wonder why nobody likes the Jews".

Thankfully a ceasefire might be close and then aid might get to the deserving Palestinian civilians who had nothing to do with this.
Click to expand...
I hope you are right, but fear you aren’t.

We have a situation in which two sides seek the annihilation of the other driven on by religious beliefs that brook no compromise. The innocents on both sides, of which there are many, are caught in the middle.

Neither the Israeli government under Netanyahu, nor Hamas, have right on their side. Both are culpable.

Only replacing both governments will, from my limited perspective, bring any chance of a lasting peace.
 
Wisbech Eagle said:
I hope you are right, but fear you aren’t.

We have a situation in which two sides seek the annihilation of the other driven on by religious beliefs that brook no compromise. The innocents on both sides, of which there are many, are caught in the middle.

Neither the Israeli government under Netanyahu, nor Hamas, have right on their side. Both are culpable.

Only replacing both governments will, from my limited perspective, bring any chance of a lasting peace.
Click to expand...
Bit of an oxymoron there..... if your religious beliefs brook no compromise, then you cannot be an innocent as you must approve because your religion says so.

Only non-believers could claim that, and I suspect there are very few of those on either side.
 
becky said:
Bit of an oxymoron there..... if your religious beliefs brook no compromise, then you cannot be an innocent as you must approve because your religion says so.

Only non-believers could claim that, and I suspect there are very few of those on either side.
Click to expand...
Having been in Israel less than six months ago for the first time in 30 years I was struck by how many there were not religious. Just as we are notionally a Christian nation they are moving the same way. Not nearly so far as us yet, but don’t be fooled by the antics of the religious hardliners there. They might be powerful but they aren’t the majority.

I have no experience of Gaza, but did travel in the West Bank whilst there and saw many friendly interactions between the Jewish people and the local Palestinians. For sure the Hamas leadership are fundamentalists but most ordinary citizens aren’t. They just want what people everywhere want for themselves and their families.

So I remain convinced that if both governments were replaced peace could be found. Doing that, with the influence of Iran on one side and the USA on the other, is much harder to achieve than theorise.
 
A British Foreign Office official who worked on counter terrorism has resigned in protest at arms sales to Israel, saying the UK government “may be complicit in war crimes”.

Mark Smith wrote to colleagues on Friday, saying he had raised concerns “at every level” in the Foreign Office, including through an official whistle blowing mechanism.
Mr Smith said he had previously worked in Middle East arms export licensing assessment for the government and “each day” colleagues were witnessing “clear and unquestionable examples” of war crimes and breaches of international humanitarian law by Israel in Gaza.

“Senior members of the Israeli government and military have expressed open genocidal intent, Israeli soldiers take videos deliberately burning, destroying and looting civilian property,” he wrote.

“Whole streets and universities have been demolished, humanitarian aid is being blocked and civilians are regularly left with no safe quarter to flee to. Red Crescent ambulances have been attacked, schools and hospitals are regularly targeted. These are War Crimes.”

He said there was “no justification for the UK's continued arms sales to Israel”. (BBC website)

www.bbc.co.uk

British Foreign Office diplomat Mark Smith resigns over Israel arms sales

The official resigned over arms sales to Israel, saying the UK government "may be complicit in war crimes".
www.bbc.co.uk
 
Killing people never ended a war, except perhaps WW1 and 2. In the vast majority of cases it ends with a negotiated settlement. The sooner any remaining Israeli hostages are released, the sooner a (lasting) ceasefire can start and an agreement can be reached.
 
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Wisbech Eagle said:
Having been in Israel less than six months ago for the first time in 30 years I was struck by how many there were not religious. Just as we are notionally a Christian nation they are moving the same way. Not nearly so far as us yet, but don’t be fooled by the antics of the religious hardliners there. They might be powerful but they aren’t the majority.

I have no experience of Gaza, but did travel in the West Bank whilst there and saw many friendly interactions between the Jewish people and the local Palestinians. For sure the Hamas leadership are fundamentalists but most ordinary citizens aren’t. They just want what people everywhere want for themselves and their families.

So I remain convinced that if both governments were replaced peace could be found. Doing that, with the influence of Iran on one side and the USA on the other, is much harder to achieve than theorise.
Click to expand...
Becky can answer for what she meant. But my take is that there are very few non believers who wield power.

On one side we have the hard right populist ultra religious nutcase element of Israelis backed by diaspora Jews and ultra right wing Christian fundamentalist nutcases from the USA.

In the other corner we have Jihadi nutcases sworn to the destruction of Israel backed by that nutcase despotic theocracy Iran.

While those sides hold all the cards, what chance the powerless overwhelming majority in the middle?
 
silvertop said:
Becky can answer for what she meant. But my take is that there are very few non believers who wield power.

On one side we have the hard right populist ultra religious nutcase element of Israelis backed by diaspora Jews and ultra right wing Christian fundamentalist nutcases from the USA.

In the other corner we have Jihadi nutcases sworn to the destruction of Israel backed by that nutcase despotic theocracy Iran.

While those sides hold all the cards, what chance the powerless overwhelming majority in the middle?
Click to expand...
What I meant is that there may be a majority who are not fundamentalists for either religion in the general run of day to day life, but push their backs up against a wall, metaphorically speaking, and you'll see just how indoctrinated they really are.
 
becky said:
What I meant is that there may be a majority who are not fundamentalists for either religion in the general run of day to day life, but push their backs up against a wall, metaphorically speaking, and you'll see just how indoctrinated they really are.
Click to expand...
Is it possible to push their backs any more?
 
silvertop said:
Becky can answer for what she meant. But my take is that there are very few non believers who wield power.

On one side we have the hard right populist ultra religious nutcase element of Israelis backed by diaspora Jews and ultra right wing Christian fundamentalist nutcases from the USA.

In the other corner we have Jihadi nutcases sworn to the destruction of Israel backed by that nutcase despotic theocracy Iran.

While those sides hold all the cards, what chance the powerless overwhelming majority in the middle?
Click to expand...
That’s the way it is now but change is possible.

Netanyahu is not universally popular. Indeed far from it. For sure there is plenty of backing from the USA but there is also growing opposition to it there. So I think political change is possible.

Whilst the ordinary citizens of Gaza must be far too concerned with daily survival to do anything to overthrow Hamas the position of the religious extremists is nothing like so secure in Iran. It’s pretty obvious they are unwilling to endorse a major escalation for fear of being wiped out.

I don’t have a crystal ball but I am not without a little bit of hope.
 
Meanwhile, more civilians are going to be dying from malnutrition and disease. The inevitable, and wholly preventable situation now developing. UN aid trucks blockaded by Israel, displaced people exposed to bombing and military action. And if that hasn't got them, then disease will.

"The waters on parts Gaza’s Mediterranean coastline have started turning brown as health experts warn of the spread of open sewage and diseases across the territory.

Satellite images, analysed by BBC Arabic, show what appears to be a large discharge of sewage spill off the coast of Deir al-Balah.

A local official told BBC Arabic displaced people in nearby camps are sending their sewage straight to sea."

The charity Oxfam told BBC Arabic a quarter of Gaza's population had already become ill because of waterborne diseases.

“We are seeing a catastrophic health crisis unfolding in front of our eyes," said Lama Abdul Samad, a water and sanitation expert at Oxfam.
 
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