How it came to this

We definitely over paid for JSL. However, at the time JPM was going and I think Nketiah was long term injured. We needed to bring in a striker. Whether we could have got somebody better, JSL cheaper or a loan I don’t know but we needed to do something. Johnson on the other hand …
In fairness I don't think too many were questioning the Johnson signing or fee at the time.

I think both these decisions, along with Christ only knows how many others, can all go into the file marked 'Looks absolutely mental now, but seemed understandable at the time'. The problem is, there have been so many of them so close to each other.
 
In fairness I don't think too many were questioning the Johnson signing or fee at the time.

I think both these decisions, along with Christ only knows how many others, can all go into the file marked 'Looks absolutely mental now, but seemed understandable at the time'. The problem is, there have been so many of them so close to each other.
Agreed. I’ve also had plenty of Friday nights like that.
 
Buying players like B. Johnson for that kind of money who Spurs were quick to want to let go on big wages.

Our record of buying the best talent from the Championship not continuing.

Glasner being a self-centred narcissistic a-hat

Selling our best players and replacing them with less good players or 0 players, multiple times.

Taking a punt on Sage - not our first time trying this ploy. Glasner arguably was also a punt, tbf.


For me, the biggest concern is that our commercial / stadium projects have not happened more quickly. That is what will lead to lasting success and it has/was been at a glacial pace, especially considering how many consecutive years in the prem and 3 trophies in the cabinet.
 
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Buying players like B. Johnson for that kind of money who Spurs were quick to want to let go on big wages.

Our record of buying the best talent from the Championship not continuing.

Glasner being a self-centred narcissistic a-hat

Selling our best players and replacing them with less good players or 0 players, multiple times.

Taking a punt on Sage - not our first time trying this ploy. Glasner arguably was also a punt, tbf.
What we got from Glasner as exactly what his record said we would. Fantastic in the cups. Won trophies and played great football for a bit. Then after about two years it went downhill in league form and ended on a bit of a sour note. Just like at his previous clubs.
 
What we got from Glasner as exactly what his record said we would. Fantastic in the cups. Won trophies and played great football for a bit. Then after about two years it went downhill in league form and ended on a bit of a sour note. Just like at his previous clubs.

Let's not rewrite history though, on paper sure. Many many on here wanted Glasner sacked at the start of his first full season before we beat Tottenham at home turned our form around. There were multiple Ollie out posts.
 
Let's not rewrite history though, on paper sure. Many many on here wanted Glasner sacked at the start of his first full season before we beat Tottenham at home turned our form around. There were multiple Ollie out posts.
I will confess I was one of them. Happy to say it turned out to be the wrong opinion
 
Combination of poor transfers, lack of ambition and no leaders.
Last year Parish was happy to sell Guéhi and his answer was to get Igor on a loan..
This season we Sell Lacroix for peanuts compared to what we could of got if we played hardball… and we got Diassi as his replacement a loanee.
Lacroix wasn’t just a great defender, he was quick, a leader and very vocal and raised the defenders aside of him game.
Sage obviously has to take lot of the blame as if we kept him, I can’t see him changing anything, we make same mistakes every game and whenever we are losing, his plan is to push wing backs higher and then we get caught out straight away.
It’s a lose lose until we get a new manager and also get rid of Hobbs also.
We have alot of time to change our fortunes and we are still in league cup and europa so the job will be appealing, plus January we will have to spend.
 
You can’t ask “How has it gone so wrong?” without also asking “How the hell did it last this long and go so well?”, because the two are connected.

Start with the context:

The idea we should have ‘kicked on’ at any stage is wrong. Consider the economics. Each year the teams above you get more money than you, so clubs who have better teams than yours get to strengthen more than you do. With each year, their advantage over you gets greater.

It is natural to want ‘progress’, but to say we should aim for 15th for a few years, then 12th for a few more, then for the top 8, and on and on is ignorant of basic financial logic. We cannot ‘kick on’. Long term mid table is as good as it gets, and not just for Palace, but for Fulham, Bournemouth, Brentford, and so on. Brighton are the media darlings, but they are the epitome of accepting your mid-table place by setting yourself up as a feeder club. The best model to follow to get to the EPL is also the most self-limiting once you get there.

That said…

As the teams above us get further from reach, so too do we get further away from those beneath us. Hence, we can cherry-pick the best players from QPR, Reading, Blackburn, Millwall etc in a way we could never have done if we were in the Championship.

The end result? The potential for a permanent status quo.

It seems to me that once a club establishes themselves in premier league mid-table, they could stay there forever. Buy good young players from those below you, get good years out of them, sell them to the big boys. This weakens the teams below you, strengthens those above, and keeps you right in the middle.

To me, what Palace are ‘guilty’ of, if anything, is trying to find a little wriggle-room in all this.

We knew we were always going to sell assets like Guehi, Olise, Eze, Lacroix etc, not because we lack ambition, but because they would only sign for us on that basis, and would not sign new contracts past a certain point. The FA Cup final team was never going to be kept together. It was successful because everyone involved, from players to manager, wanted to use us as a stepping stone in the best way: Come here, do well, move on.

What Palace did was to try and keep the positive momentum going. We could have sold Guehi, Eze, and Mateta (who we did sell, let’s remember) and spent the money on five or six young hopefuls, weakening the team and beginning the cycle again. Be honest, though: How many of us would have moaned about that? We had a good team, had won a trophy, and were amongst the favourites to win in Europe. The club tried to go for it with the Johnson and JSL signings. You can add Nketiah, and perhaps Pino to that. We all raised an eyebrow at the fees, but very few of us thought they would be disasters as players. They were road-tested to some degree, and in their prime.

In other words, Palace stepped outside of their lane. They saw a one in a lifetime chance to go for it a bit. They tried to not be a feeder club for a change.

I think the same is true of appointing Sage rather than Dyche or Frank. Parish didn’t want the team to get that far then go back into its shell. He didn’t want us all to die wondering. He is, I think, still a bit of a dreamer in that way.

Ultimately, none of it has worked. In getting back into Europe we made our finances even tighter due to UEFA FFP, and had to sell Lacroix when we surely would have wanted to keep him for another year. We have bought too many average players in the hope of having squad depth, but then, how many on here would have moaned if we didn’t try to prepare for Europe? We bought young hopefuls like Khalili, Gozo, Osario etc when we needed senior pros, but developing and selling at a profit is the only way Palace can have any kind of transfer budget.

In hindsight, we should have battened down the hatches this summer and just gone back to basics it terms of managerial appointment, squad building, and general expectations. It’s easy to say that now, though. None of it was mad, or negligent. It just hasn't worked.

Anyway, I don’t think the damage is bound to be fatal. If a new manager gets into the players and they pick up 4 points from the next two games whilst playing coherently, everything will appear a bit more rosy. The promised land of 15th – 12th may beckon.

The key is probably in recognising the value of that mid-table place, the risks involved in trying to push on, and just how finely balanced everything is.
Excellent post, right on the nail IMO.
 
He's the 18th most expensive defender in the history of football according to Transfermarkt, who wanted out and only had one club wanting to buy him?
Also if we hadn’t taken the offer we could be in a situation like we are with Sarr where we have a player who won’t play but we couldn’t move him on and reinvest the money.

We definitely needed to replace Lacroix properly though and didn’t.
 
Clubs that constantly sell their best players eventually end up going down, wolves and saints are prime examples, it looks like it’s finally caught up with us.

Selling two of the best CB’s in the division and Munoz and replacing them with players who are just not good enough or out of their depth and the constant chopping and changing of the back three because of this is why we’re shipping chances and goals and why it’s come to this

I know someone will say Brighton sell their best players, but we’re not Brighton and clearly they’ve got a great recruitment team
Successful smaller clubs end up selling their best players, as they are lured away by bigger clubs, who can offer them bigger wages and almost guaranteed success. It happened to the 1990 team, most of them left after being picked for England or had their heads turned.

Recently Leicester had the audacity to win the Premier, all their key players except Vardy left.
We have been a victim of our own success, Europe is a joke, as 70% PSR rule, where non European qualifiers have 85% of turnover to spend on transfers. Lacroix and Munoz were sold to enable the squad to be bolstered, unfortunately the players bought haven't hit the ground running, bar maybe Timber.

Clubs our size aren't meant to be successful, just fodder for the big teams to play.
 
Successful smaller clubs end up selling their best players, as they are lured away by bigger clubs, who can offer them bigger wages and almost guaranteed success. It happened to the 1990 team, most of them left after being picked for England or had their heads turned.

Recently Leicester had the audacity to win the Premier, all their key players except Vardy left.
We have been a victim of our own success, Europe is a joke, as 70% PSR rule, where non European qualifiers have 85% of turnover to spend on transfers. Lacroix and Munoz were sold to enable the squad to be bolstered, unfortunately the players bought haven't hit the ground running, bar maybe Timber.

Clubs our size aren't meant to be successful, just fodder for the big teams to play.
Makes you wonder what the point is to any if it. On RefWatch this morning Tim Sherwood talking about whether the Man United equaliser should have been disallowed just said, "At Old Trafford in extra time? Not a chance"
 
Also if we hadn’t taken the offer we could be in a situation like we are with Sarr where we have a player who won’t play but we couldn’t move him on and reinvest the money.

We definitely needed to replace Lacroix properly though and didn’t.
I don’t think Lacroix was like that. He gave his all for the club and loved the fans. I thought he should have been offered the captaincy and a significant raise in salary to sign a new contract.
 
You can’t ask “How has it gone so wrong?” without also asking “How the hell did it last this long and go so well?”, because the two are connected.

Start with the context:

The idea we should have ‘kicked on’ at any stage is wrong. Consider the economics. Each year the teams above you get more money than you, so clubs who have better teams than yours get to strengthen more than you do. With each year, their advantage over you gets greater.

It is natural to want ‘progress’, but to say we should aim for 15th for a few years, then 12th for a few more, then for the top 8, and on and on is ignorant of basic financial logic. We cannot ‘kick on’. Long term mid table is as good as it gets, and not just for Palace, but for Fulham, Bournemouth, Brentford, and so on. Brighton are the media darlings, but they are the epitome of accepting your mid-table place by setting yourself up as a feeder club. The best model to follow to get to the EPL is also the most self-limiting once you get there.

That said…

As the teams above us get further from reach, so too do we get further away from those beneath us. Hence, we can cherry-pick the best players from QPR, Reading, Blackburn, Millwall etc in a way we could never have done if we were in the Championship.

The end result? The potential for a permanent status quo.

It seems to me that once a club establishes themselves in premier league mid-table, they could stay there forever. Buy good young players from those below you, get good years out of them, sell them to the big boys. This weakens the teams below you, strengthens those above, and keeps you right in the middle.

To me, what Palace are ‘guilty’ of, if anything, is trying to find a little wriggle-room in all this.

We knew we were always going to sell assets like Guehi, Olise, Eze, Lacroix etc, not because we lack ambition, but because they would only sign for us on that basis, and would not sign new contracts past a certain point. The FA Cup final team was never going to be kept together. It was successful because everyone involved, from players to manager, wanted to use us as a stepping stone in the best way: Come here, do well, move on.

What Palace did was to try and keep the positive momentum going. We could have sold Guehi, Eze, and Mateta (who we did sell, let’s remember) and spent the money on five or six young hopefuls, weakening the team and beginning the cycle again. Be honest, though: How many of us would have moaned about that? We had a good team, had won a trophy, and were amongst the favourites to win in Europe. The club tried to go for it with the Johnson and JSL signings. You can add Nketiah, and perhaps Pino to that. We all raised an eyebrow at the fees, but very few of us thought they would be disasters as players. They were road-tested to some degree, and in their prime.

In other words, Palace stepped outside of their lane. They saw a one in a lifetime chance to go for it a bit. They tried to not be a feeder club for a change.

I think the same is true of appointing Sage rather than Dyche or Frank. Parish didn’t want the team to get that far then go back into its shell. He didn’t want us all to die wondering. He is, I think, still a bit of a dreamer in that way.

Ultimately, none of it has worked. In getting back into Europe we made our finances even tighter due to UEFA FFP, and had to sell Lacroix when we surely would have wanted to keep him for another year. We have bought too many average players in the hope of having squad depth, but then, how many on here would have moaned if we didn’t try to prepare for Europe? We bought young hopefuls like Khalili, Gozo, Osario etc when we needed senior pros, but developing and selling at a profit is the only way Palace can have any kind of transfer budget.

In hindsight, we should have battened down the hatches this summer and just gone back to basics it terms of managerial appointment, squad building, and general expectations. It’s easy to say that now, though. None of it was mad, or negligent. It just hasn't worked.

Anyway, I don’t think the damage is bound to be fatal. If a new manager gets into the players and they pick up 4 points from the next two games whilst playing coherently, everything will appear a bit more rosy. The promised land of 15th – 12th may beckon.

The key is probably in recognising the value of that mid-table place, the risks involved in trying to push on, and just how finely balanced everything is.
I think you raise some very valid points, although I have my own take on some of them.

I agree re '' pushing on ''. To what exactly ? I'll have to eat those words should Brighton finish in a Champions League spot this season, but I think for our club, a mid table finish constitutes a success.

The players you mentioned that we lost, we unsuccessfully tried to replace some - eg Esse for Eze/Olise. We've all seen what Olise has gone on to achieve, it would be lightning striking twice to fill the gap he left. Lacroix though was in contract with another three years I think to run. Not sure if there was a release clause. I understand the financial pressures that you mention, but surely the club could have only signed off on the deal once a suitable replacement was in the bag ? Guehi was the one where we all knew how it would end but not when.

I thought the signing of Strand Larsen was a folly at the time. But then you look at how Chelsea turned a profit on Delap and have to accept that as a going rate for that type of player.

The summer transfer activity was widely discussed by my circle of friends that I go to games with. Let's call them ' The Learned Ladies and Gentlemen ''. We were concerned at the lack of proven experience leaving the club. Together with the overall squad profile - it didn't look balanced. Add to the mix the tactics used by Sage and we got more or less what we feared. A team that shows promise in possession and is desperately lacking when not. Add to that the Mateta and Sarr situations and Sage's chances of success were doomed to failure.

So I think we may well have prepared for Europe by adding depth to the squad, and we all recognised that as being necessary. But I don't agree that the club needed to focus almost exclusively on young unproven players to develop and turn a profit on. A blend was needed and I'm surprised that the powers that be at the club didn't see that for themselves.

As for '' mad or negligent '' - I say effectively shelling out £35m for Dwight McNeil is a lunacy !

I do get the rationale behind Sage's appointment. It was looked upon as a natural succession from Glasner. And Sage has had the cards stacked against him with things that he can't control himself.

As you say, a new manager will hopefully resolve a number of the issues and we can aspire to our usual mid table finish.

But to have that as an aspiration as early as this is a big disappointment.
 
As a follow-up to my previous post and that of a certain Mr Salvage concerning amoung other things the poisened chalice of success. has anybody watched the Netflix docu "untold - Vinny Jones"? Apart from some very funny tackles (assaults) made by Jones there are some interesting insights from John Fashanu and Sam hamman (the ex Wimbledon owner) explaining the significant difference that arose immediately the old first division mutated into the EPL franchaise. Suddenly Wimbledon and the likes could not compete, tried sighning players that exceeded the budget, stepped out of their lane and got flattened by a juggernaut driving in the fast lane. For Wimbledon that was ultimately curtains, big time. Fro clubs like us there is no real moving on or up and unless Brighton actually do achieve Champions League I suspect the future on the south coast won't be so rosy as the media currently states. Even if they do, I can only say Leicester. In hindsight, we should have, as some have said here, gone back to basics.
 

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