Israel v Iran

[silvertop]

No to both.

When the cost of filling your car doubles most people will start questioning it too.

Gaza is black and white wrong.

But Iran? More nuanced.

I said up the the thread, madness to let Iran carry on building their bomb. Targeted bombing was essential. But...

Not by Israel.

And there will be a cost. Count on it.

What do you think will happen to all that enriched uranium that survived the attacks? They may not have the capacity to build ICBMs, but they sure as hell know how to build a dirty bomb.

You wonder Western powers have been quick not to criticize the attacks but to distance themselves from them. They do not want a nuclear clean up of London, Berlin and Paris.

 

[steeleye20]

Western intelligence have signaled that they believe Iran is about to conduct missile strikes on American and western military airbases and port facilities in Qatar.

The term 'avoid-semitic' would be far more appropriate.

😎

 

[Penge Eagle]

Israel is no better than any other foreign nation and the absurd levels of protection it gets from criticism is pretty weird.

If I can slag off my own sodding nation I can slag off Israel.....no one calls me anti anglo because I slag off Labour or Tories or even Reform.

Except that the opposite is true.

And context matters hugely...

 

[Penge Eagle]

Let's not forget those who are really suffering at this terrible time.

Steeleye, Beak and others have had to endure the shocking sight of the state enabler of their dream of river to sea Jew free Israel being emasculated .

They may take years to recover.

Hamas, Hezbollah and ther Houthis all cut off now or soon.

#prayfortheholjewhaters

Yes they're are some conspicuous by their absence!

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Israel is no better than any other foreign nation and the absurd levels of protection it gets from criticism is pretty weird.

If I can slag off my own sodding nation I can slag off Israel.....no one calls me anti anglo because I slag off Labour or Tories or even Reform.

It makes a refreshing change to be able to wholeheartedly agree with you.

The idea that just because you object to any political approach also implies you object to the religion of those you are criticising is stupendously stupid.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Gaza is black and white wrong.

But Iran? More nuanced.

I said up the the thread, madness to let Iran carry on building their bomb. Targeted bombing was essential. But...

Not by Israel.

And there will be a cost. Count on it.

What do you think will happen to all that enriched uranium that survived the attacks? They may not have the capacity to build ICBMs, but they sure as hell know how to build a dirty bomb.

You wonder Western powers have been quick not to criticize the attacks but to distance themselves from them. They do not want a nuclear clean up of London, Berlin and Paris.

You don't need to build your own bomb to get one.

It's a distraction.

They enriched to 2/3 the required strength, probably and somewhat ironically to act as a deterrent.

Israel had been claiming Iran were within grasp of nukes for thirty years.....again, somewhat hypocritically themselves.

I don't consider bombing a nation a good deterrent to getting the bomb....in fact I'd wager that Iran will have nukes within ten years, unless the regime is overthrown.

Let's hope for that outcome, that a new regime takes over who....like IS in Syria (though hopefully not them) are willing to go on the take.

 

[silvertop]

Except that the opposite is true.

And context matters hugely...

I get your point and we have touched on this before. Like it or not, Israel is newsworthy. Some endless, brutal civil war in Bum F**k Nowhere Land is not.

There are a number of reasons for this, not least the far-reaching consequences and the fact that people here largely see people there as more like us (but without the Imperial guilt - South Africa).

It is at least academically interesting that this site is largely dominated by those who are of nationalist, populist, far right persuasion (at least from me). 100 years ago you would have been antisemites to a man. Now, you largely and blindly back a Jewish state and label any critics of anything it does as "Jew haters". Is this because you and Israel are now united behind a hatred of one new enemy. Islam.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Except that the opposite is true.

Well, it's always Israel involved in wars of choice.....and the US paying for it.
There are legitimate reasons to hold a position against that.

Then there's what's happening in Gaza, which concerns me morally.

And context matters hugely...

Personally I think we all know the difference between people who genuinely hate Jews and don't....usually there is an ethnic component to it related to the middle east.....though sections of the (and I dislike using the term) far left/far right can hate them for differing reasons....but most don't and Jews are in all those movements too.

Far too many people get called anti semitic who just don't like the government or the policies.

 

[Penge Eagle]

It makes a refreshing change to be able to wholeheartedly agree with you.

The idea that just because you object to any political approach also implies you object to the religion of those you are criticising is stupendously stupid.

The interesting thing is...

1. Every Israel government is criticised no matter the political party in power.

2. The double standard in that people - who live on a different continent - feel the need to criticise it so much yet ignore far worse governments.

3. The criticism overwhelming comes from left-wing ideologues.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

You don't need to build your own bomb to get one.

It's a distraction.

They enriched to 2/3 the required strength, probably and somewhat ironically to act as a deterrent.

Israel had been claiming Iran were within grasp of nukes for thirty years.....again, somewhat hypocritically themselves.

I don't consider bombing a nation a good deterrent to getting the bomb....in fact I'd wager that Iran will have nukes within ten years, unless the regime is overthrown.

Let's hope for that outcome, that a new regime takes over who....like IS in Syria (though hopefully not them) are willing to go on the take.

Putin has already muddied the water by hinting exactly that.

The last 2 weeks has increased the prospect of that happening.

Trump tore up the most promising route to a place of reasonable security when he withdrew the US from JCPOA in 2018. It’s been downhill ever since and getting back to that point looks to be a daunting task.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

The interesting thing is...

1. Every Israel government is criticised no matter the political party in power.

2. The double standard in that people - who live on a different continent - feel the need to criticise it so much yet ignore far worse governments.

3. The criticism overwhelming comes from left-wing ideologues.

That is criticism of the political criticism and misses the point completely.

The interesting thing is that the actual point is constantly ignored.

You can criticise, or hold, political views without being critical of religious beliefs.

 

[silvertop]

You don't need to build your own bomb to get one.

It's a distraction.

They enriched to 2/3 the required strength, probably and somewhat ironically to act as a deterrent.

Israel had been claiming Iran were within grasp of nukes for thirty years.....again, somewhat hypocritically themselves.

I don't consider bombing a nation a good deterrent to getting the bomb....in fact I'd wager that Iran will have nukes within ten years, unless the regime is overthrown.

Let's hope for that outcome, that a new regime takes over who....like IS in Syria (though hopefully not them) are willing to go on the take.

I called out the current Iranian regime as c**ts. Hrolf suggested this may mean I favour them?? Now I don't know where he was raised, but growing up on a council estate in Erith, you called anyone that you left little room for ambiguity.

They are genuinely horrible. But attempting to get into their minds, they must look at the countries who possess the bomb and think - if our mortal enemy Israel has them, why not us? Of course they do.

Israel want to preserve the gross inequality of arms. Again, of course they do. This includes pedaling the bollox about Iran being one step away from launching Armageddon. However, by a margin I see Israel as more responsible custodians of that power. There is always a risk that a bonkers theocratic state would launch a holy bomb in the name of their God.

As to who takes over, it is sad to think that the Syria experience may be the best they have to look forward to. Anyone who knows anyone Iranian knows they are bloody nice people and deserve so much more than their appalling leaders.

 

[Penge Eagle]

I get your point and we have touched on this before. Like it or not, Israel is newsworthy. Some endless, brutal civil war in Bum F**k Nowhere Land is not.

There are a number of reasons for this, not least the far-reaching consequences and the fact that people here largely see people there as more like us (but without the Imperial guilt - South Africa).

It is at least academically interesting that this site is largely dominated by those who are of nationalist, populist, far right persuasion (at least from me). 100 years ago you would have been antisemites to a man. Now, you largely and blindly back a Jewish state and label any critics of anything it does as "Jew haters". Is this because you and Israel are now united behind a hatred of one new enemy. Islam.

So are you saying most people just follow what the mainstream news tells them like little sheep and don't educate themselves about other global wars, territorial disputes, occupations and real genocides, let alone travel?

Israel should be supported for its Western values, democracy, as the birth of Christianity and in trying to deal with real national security threats from its neighbours. They are a friend of the UK while Iran and its proxies are not. Why do leftists always support our enemies?? Or at least give them the benefit of the doubt yet don't apply the same to Israel...

 

[steeleye20]

Nuclear technology has certainly moved on since Chernobyl, there's no radiation anymore.

😎

 

[Stirlingsays]

I called out the current Iranian regime as c**ts. Hrolf suggested this may mean I favour them?? Now I don't know where he was raised, but growing up on a council estate in Erith, you called anyone that you left little room for ambiguity.

They are genuinely horrible. But attempting to get into their minds, they must look at the countries who possess the bomb and think - if our mortal enemy Israel has them, why not us? Of course they do.

Israel want to preserve the gross inequality of arms. Again, of course they do. This includes pedaling the bollox about Iran being one step away from launching Armageddon. However, by a margin I see Israel as more responsible custodians of that power. There is always a risk that a bonkers theocratic state would launch a holy bomb in the name of their God.

As to who takes over, it is sad to think that the Syria experience may be the best they have to look forward to. Anyone who knows anyone Iranian knows they are bloody nice people and deserve so much more than their appalling leaders.

Yep, I know a half Iranian and half Welsh.

The sheep have no chance in his area.

But seriously, yes it's an educated and rich culture that has suffered under religious dogma and it would be great if it could free itself.

 

[silvertop]

The interesting thing is...

1. Every Israel government is criticised no matter the political party in power.

2. The double standard in that people - who live on a different continent - feel the need to criticise it so much yet ignore far worse governments.

3. The criticism overwhelming comes from left-wing ideologues.

Yes and no.

There was a constant presence outside the South African embassy for decades while other African nations sat well above them on the Amnesty horror charts without such vigil. Like Israel, they were disproportionately targeted. Little criticism of Myanmar, Sudan etc.

However, Israel tends to be criticized more because of what is possibly subliminal racism. They are a Western democracy not some autocratic savages. Egypt falls below our standards, they get away with it. "Western" Israel, no!

And the suggestion every Israeli government gets the boot is wrong. Any regime that reaches out and shakes hands with their hostile neighbours has been lauded and garlanded with Nobel prizes. You cant really say that about the current regime. They have been in power for too long and have inevitably grown more corrupt. Criticizing their conduct is easy.

And if criticizing carpet bombing civilian areas with the aim of collateral punishment of non-combatants, or deliberately targeting hospitals is "left-wing", then I probably qualify for that label in this context.

 

[silvertop]

So are you saying most people just follow what the mainstream news tells them like little sheep and don't educate themselves about other global wars, territorial disputes, occupations and real genocides, let alone travel?

Israel should be supported for its Western values, democracy, as the birth of Christianity and in trying to deal with real national security threats from its neighbours. They are a friend of the UK while Iran and its proxies are not. Why do leftists always support our enemies?? Or at least give them the benefit of the doubt yet don't apply the same to Israel...

Well, yeah. I think that has to be common ground, no? It is on the news daily, but "most" people could not find Israel on the map. Try it out in your local.

What on earth is a "leftist"? You tell me what one is and I will attempt to answer that.

 

[Penge Eagle]

That is criticism of the political criticism and misses the point completely.

The interesting thing is that the actual point is constantly ignored.

You can criticise, or hold, political views without being critical of religious beliefs.

You criticise that government far more than any other. Incredible double standard.

You have also said the Jews should have been relocated to the USA. Imagine saying Armenians should have had a state in Texas instead of Armenia after the genocide?

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Israel is no better than any other foreign nation and the absurd levels of protection it gets from criticism is pretty weird.

If I can slag off my own sodding nation I can slag off Israel.....no one calls me anti anglo because I slag off Labour or Tories or even Reform.

I'd say that Israel does get a lot of criticism, especially from the Left, but it would also be fair to say that there is a lot of sensitivity around criticising Jews, given their history, which is exploited by the Israeli government when it suits them.

For me, it's not a question of approving of Israel or liking or disliking Jews. Israel is an ally and I support it as an enemy of our enemy.
I have no time for religious fanaticism of any sort or identifying one's self with a religion, but if I'm forced to choose between Islam and Judaism, I know who I'm going with.

Does this mean that one can give blanket approval to anything Israel does. No.
Do it mean we have to tolerate certain ugly truths for the sake of the bigger picture? Yes.

 

[PalazioVecchio]

BBC verify all over "has Trump the legal power to order strikes". Grudgingly despite the experts they quote they have to admit that Clinton, Obama and Biden did the same.

Did President Trump have legal authority to launch Iran strikes?

Some lawmakers have called Trump's strikes on Iran "unconstitutional" - so did he have the authority to order them?

www.bbc.co.uk

imagine if Trump's bombers were returning to the US and passing over UK airspace ? would the Donald be tempted to give a little present to the BBC HQ ? or Sadiq's offices that used to fly a Trump balloon ?