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Israel v Hamas

CPFCSaturn said:
I'd imagine whoever is funding him sees the grift as more credible if he doesn't convert - the 'educated outsider' who just gets it.
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I'm a social conservative, so I like Murray....I have a couple of his books.

I was a neocon....back in the day I bought all the arguments....Now I'm not a neocon because I realised that not only was I wrong but the arguments being used were essentially in part co-opted and manipulation for other ends.

Regardless, I agree with Murray on much....So I do feel uncomfortable with this idea that I'm his political enemy. I've always preferred the idea that some soft of compromise can be found in this particular area.

However, when you analyse what's going on in Israel I think that's unrealistic and it's a case of the dice is cast as that Rubicon has most definitely been crossed. So the 'pro Israel' team very much have their work cut out and I don't really think their 'with us or against us' tactics will work.

Israel's fate in the short to medium term is secure, due to its influence and money in America (and nukes...the tech for which they stole). For Israel to go down the US would go down with it....that's how tied up they are. Long term not so much as demographically the European boomers will be replaced by a majority Hispanic demographic who don't relate to the same narratives.....I think this understanding is one of the reasons you are seeing what you are seeing in Israel/Palestine.

I think Jews in Europe should focus more on their situation in their own countries, because on that the right in general is in lock step with them.....Well, right wing Jews that is, because the majority are pathologically left wing.
 
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Lol.


Meanwhile, this is an important development

www.bbc.co.uk

Hamas' iron grip on Gaza is slowly slipping as residents protest

Gazan civilians are losing their fear of Hamas, openly criticising the group on the streets and online.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

Interesting psychological angle being that BECAUSE the IDF have bombed the s*** out of Gaza the people there are no longer afraid of Hamas. One could argue that the bombing is a success and reflects other serious bombing in wars, that people are initially defiant, then when everything is f***ed for long enough they resign to defeat and no longer support their own leadership.

"defiance is still risky. In Gaza City, Hamas shot one such protester dead."

I imagine that this one unfortunate got added to the names of those victims of IDF bombing by Hamas....
 
Spindle said:
Lol.


Meanwhile, this is an important development

www.bbc.co.uk

Hamas' iron grip on Gaza is slowly slipping as residents protest

Gazan civilians are losing their fear of Hamas, openly criticising the group on the streets and online.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

Interesting psychological angle being that BECAUSE the IDF have bombed the s*** out of Gaza the people there are no longer afraid of Hamas. One could argue that the bombing is a success and reflects other serious bombing in wars, that people are initially defiant, then when everything is f***ed for long enough they resign to defeat and no longer support their own leadership.

"defiance is still risky. In Gaza City, Hamas shot one such protester dead."

I imagine that this one unfortunate got added to the names of those victims of IDF bombing by Hamas....
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What you're describing is essentially collective punishment, which is a war crime.

If your definition of 'success' is to resign a population to defeat, a nuke would be incredibly successful.
 
The civilian population of more than 2 million vastly outnumbers the Hamas terrorists. Here's hoping they can take back control of their country. There is precedent in the region such as Syrian opposition to Assad but it's still a helluva task. But I'm intrigued about what happened to Fatah, if they can return or are a viable option anyway?
 
Spindle said:
Lol.


Meanwhile, this is an important development

www.bbc.co.uk

Hamas' iron grip on Gaza is slowly slipping as residents protest

Gazan civilians are losing their fear of Hamas, openly criticising the group on the streets and online.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

Interesting psychological angle being that BECAUSE the IDF have bombed the s*** out of Gaza the people there are no longer afraid of Hamas. One could argue that the bombing is a success and reflects other serious bombing in wars, that people are initially defiant, then when everything is f***ed for long enough they resign to defeat and no longer support their own leadership.

"defiance is still risky. In Gaza City, Hamas shot one such protester dead."

I imagine that this one unfortunate got added to the names of those victims of IDF bombing by Hamas....
Click to expand...

It isn't what it seems.....we should learn to take little at face value. In its own way this suits both parties.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
What you're describing is essentially collective punishment, which is a war crime.

If your definition of 'success' is to resign a population to defeat, a nuke would be incredibly successful.
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Both sides dehumanise the other.

It's a requirement if you are going to kill and not take emotional damage.

Unless you're a psychopath.

This war is a blood feud, and they only end one of two ways.
 
Penge Eagle said:
The civilian population of more than 2 million vastly outnumbers the Hamas terrorists. Here's hoping they can take back control of their country. There is precedent in the region such as Syrian opposition to Assad but it's still a helluva task. But I'm intrigued about what happened to Fatah, if they can return or are a viable option anyway?
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"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas... This is part of our strategy; to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank" - Benjamin Netanyahu, 2019.

"In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas. Gaza was on the brink of collapse because they had no resources, they had no money, and the PA refused to give Hamas any money. Bibi saved them. Bibi made a deal with Qatar and they started to move millions and millions of dollars to Gaza." - former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, 2023.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
"Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas... This is part of our strategy; to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank" - Benjamin Netanyahu, 2019.

"In the last 15 years, Israel did everything to downgrade the Palestinian Authority and to boost Hamas. Gaza was on the brink of collapse because they had no resources, they had no money, and the PA refused to give Hamas any money. Bibi saved them. Bibi made a deal with Qatar and they started to move millions and millions of dollars to Gaza." - former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, 2023.
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What is your point?
 
CPFCSaturn said:
1. That 'taking back control of their country' is not solely in the hands of Palestinian civilians

2. That Israel have worked hard to ensure Hamas remain the controlling power
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1. Agree.

2. That was a major miscalculation by Bibi. I can see the logic behind Israel approving $millions from Qatar to stabilise Gaza while also weakening the PA. He ignored security warnings as the money ended up supporting Hamas' military wing. In the same time period, the US gave similar amounts of money for Gaza civilians... and it ended up funding Hamas' military. The UK and EU did the same, albeit with smaller amounts. Then Oct 7 happened. There's a moral to the story in there.
 
Stirlingsays said:
That clip seemed to have play issues for me but what I heard of it seemed pretty accurate.

It doesn't translate into flattening a city half of which is women and children but I didn't hear anything I disagreed with.
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Correct - there is also no one side who has a monopoly on hating the other and wanting to wipe them out. Both sides are far too happy dehumanising the other - much of the rhetoric out of Israel is every bit as abhorrent as the examples he cites from Islam.

He is also just taking things put to him by nutjobs on twitter and making out those are commonly held views - in all the discourse I've ever read on grooming gangs over many, many years, I don't think I've ever seen Jews mentioned, in any capacity whatsoever.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
Correct - there is also no one side who has a monopoly on hating the other and wanting to wipe them out. Both sides are far too happy dehumanising the other - much of the rhetoric out of Israel is every bit as abhorrent as the examples he cites from Islam.

He is also just taking things put to him by nutjobs on twitter and making out those are commonly held views - in all the discourse I've ever read on grooming gangs over many, many years, I don't think I've ever seen Jews mentioned, in any capacity whatsoever.
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I certainly agree with your first paragraph, but I wouldn't really know much about the second.
 
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