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War in Ukraine

Hrolf The Ganger said:
This is all just talk. It's politically motivated.

What matters is the end result. We want a lasting peaceful solution.

We know what Putin is, and we have to deal with him regardless. We can play politics and squabble amongst ourselves, or we can accept the stark reality.

What is the alternative to negotiating an end to this war? Do you want escalation, or do you just want to score political points?
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You can't s*** the bed about nuclear escalation language from Putin but ignore China in similar rhetoric.

Personally I don't have an issue with Europe arming up, and there are many nations that don't pull their weight, such as Ireland. Without being strong Putin will do what he wants, so you have to have the threat of it. And I understand that Trump wants Europe strong and he's right that we should be able to handle Putin ourselves, we're going to need to because Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand and the USA are going to have to handle the Chinese*

*Jury out for me on China - lots of show but a lack of innovation, they copy everything and rely on western tech far more than people realise. They are also unproven in battle as combined arms having not fought a war since 1947, and I have heard that even their equipment is failure prone, eg metallurgy in their standard issue rifle being so s*** that it constantly fails. Plus their population is delicate, about to have a population crash and is heavily male. Plus plus their economy is faked and fragile, relies on the west or they'll kick off in the streets - look at the bankrupted building companies they have.
 
Spindle said:
You can't s*** the bed about nuclear escalation language from Putin but ignore China in similar rhetoric.

Personally I don't have an issue with Europe arming up, and there are many nations that don't pull their weight, such as Ireland. Without being strong Putin will do what he wants, so you have to have the threat of it. And I understand that Trump wants Europe strong and he's right that we should be able to handle Putin ourselves, we're going to need to because Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, Australia, New Zealand and the USA are going to have to handle the Chinese*

*Jury out for me on China - lots of show but a lack of innovation, they copy everything and rely on western tech far more than people realise. They are also unproven in battle as combined arms having not fought a war since 1947, and I have heard that even their equipment is failure prone, eg metallurgy in their standard issue rifle being so s*** that it constantly fails. Plus their population is delicate, about to have a population crash and is heavily male. Plus plus their economy is faked and fragile, relies on the west or they'll kick off in the streets - look at the bankrupted building companies they have.
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Korean war?
 
Well there were conscripts in Korea that came pouring across the border once the USA had pushed the communists right out of the country, but it wasn't a Chinese war. Same with Vietnam which had Chinese conscripts. They've had skirmishes with India too of course, but nothing major and nothing Naval against real power.
 
Spindle said:
Look, you're going to have to be sensible about this kind of language, and more honest. You seem to be labelling anyone that doesn't side with your own particular view as someone that believes in the DEI s***, I'm disappointed but maybe I've made a misjudgement.

I think a Trump voting mate of mine said to me the other night online whilst we were smashing Jerry in our P-38J's that you have 2 types of "Liberal" generally, the majority are "Traditional" and hold many of your beliefs and way forward, and you will agree with on many things, but you are lumping them in with the other lots, the "Progressive" Liberals, those are the screaming Palestine and LGBQT++++++ feminist flag wavers and clueless communist types. Very very different sorts, and without the former Trump wouldn't have got in.

Also, he is quite happy with domestic policy but quite upset by foreign policy, and like I said a couple of weeks back, most of the American people are not believing that Russia are suddenly the good guys because of a couple of tweets.
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No, I'd say you're right in general.

One set of liberals are far worse than the other, who are generally centralists....just as a Owen Jones type progressive isn't a Blairite and vice versa.

But I'm not a centralist....I agree with them on some things but ultimately I realise that liberalism.....ultimately has no defence against progressivism....it 'tut tuts' but progressivism came from within its own ranks and thus it has no firewall to it.....They both see the world in permanent Churchill v Hitler mode.

I'm a social conservative in the western tradition, so I have by default the normal freedoms before Blair came in and built his new era of 'protected classes' and legalised subversions.... my tradition is the opposite of all the DEI and anti white stuff....Far closer to the west of the seventies and eighties than today's 'easily offended' embarrassment.

So I'm not even a modern Conservative because they are social liberals and sold out to the bed wetters as well and they would sell out on just about any principle if it would maintain their house price.

I'm a Ben Habib or Rupert Lowe of Reform type of Social Conservative.
 
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Spindle said:
Well there were conscripts in Korea that came pouring across the border once the USA had pushed the communists right out of the country, but it wasn't a Chinese war. Same with Vietnam which had Chinese conscripts. They've had skirmishes with India too of course, but nothing major and nothing Naval against real power.
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Like Russia, China have manpower....sheer numbers matter.

But all this war talk is the problem, wars are bad for business and with the world economy already sliding down the pipe nations really need to jaw jaw not war war....to rather ironically paraphrase Churchill.

Our political class have been totally unrealistic for so many years and the country's in a mess because of their decisions and can kicking.
 
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Stirlingsays said:
Like Russia, China have manpower....sheer numbers matter.

But all this war talk is the problem, wars are bad for business and with the world economy already sliding down the pipe nations really need to jaw jaw not war war....to rather ironically paraphrase Churchill.

Our political class have been totally unrealistic for so many years and the country's in a mess because of their decisions and can kicking.
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Mario Puzo and Francis Ford Coppola lines.
 
I picked this idea up from another thread about the shift in the left, but it's more appropriate here.

Spare a though for poor old Jeremy Corbyn, he's getting on like we all are and life must be very confusing for him.

He has spent his political life defending Russia, ban the bomb, stop the war matches etc. All had the same point, Russia is our friend not our enemy and we should disarm. He didn't even pause for breath when the Berlin wall came down.

Today he must be very confused, the Labour Party now seem dead keen on fighting Russia.

At the next Stop The War rally he is likely to be sharing a platform with the Tories and Nigel Farage. They do say politics make strange bedfellows.

I sympathise with him, the older I get the more the confusing life gets as values you hold to be sacred are just thrown aside by the younger generations.

😀
 
Although he's not been a Labour MP for some time, he's an independent.

I wonder what he's tweeting about Gaza and his mates Hamas right now....
 
Spindle said:
Interesting points of view

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He talks a lot of sense. I have always said that Trump maybe obnoxious but he is not an idiot and there is reason behind his madness.

My take from this is Trump is saying we will make peace with Russia leaving a weak Putin in place. Trump has nothing but contempt for Western Europe and he has a point.

Why should America defend Europe when Western Europe has the economic power to defend itself.

This is Trump putting America first and I expect he will cutback troops and spending once peace has been achieved. For too long Europe has hidden behind the Americans skirts.

This is geopolitics and what is good for America is not likely to be good for Europe, but as the man says the Europeans want a seat at the poker table but don't want to ante up the chips.
 
Yes however that makes it look like it that's our fault. You have to realise that the cold war was created by the USA and USSR, not Europe, the military industrial complex was driven by the USA, the nuke arms race at the centre of it. Had those two made better relations over the 60 years they were squabbling and skirmishing then neither would've been as big as they were. Indeed the Soviets originally were just lying anyway, they spent their money on the people and just lied about their nukes and arms whilst the USA was on a big race, building the complex and (as we see now) eventual arms superiority. It was only when the USSR decided to change direction and felt they needed to arm with nukes did the people suffer for it and eventually the wall came down.
Also, the USA has basically insisted on being top dog this whole time. They've dominated and punished those who didn't comply, and they were the ones who sold their arms to European armies, so this sudden change as if they were nothing to do with it and we've all failed is a piss take.

I just wish that there would've been another way.
 
Spindle said:
I just wish that there would've been another way.
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Oh boy, there so could have.

This gets into the whole wisdom of expanding Nato eastwards after the collapse of the Soviet Union debate. I have some sympathy for some expansion.....but not into border countries.

I just regard that as incredibly reckless.....a policy taken by the Bush administration and there was much pushback at the time but ultimately the neocons won.

I use to be a neocon myself....thankfully I rid myself of that madness long ago....long before this disastrous war.
 
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