Sage in or out

Sage in or out

  • In

    Votes: 104 38.2%
  • Out

    Votes: 127 46.7%
  • Sit on the fence

    Votes: 41 15.1%

  • Total voters
    272
If it’s entirely down to the players to adapt to everything, then what’s the point of having a manager? You might as well just send them out and let them get on with it.

The issue we’ve got is that opposition teams don’t even have to think particularly hard about how to play against us. Our marking system at corners (and all other times), is absolutely abysmal. All Spurs had to do was put the ball towards the back post. They did exactly the same thing early in the game when Henderson had to punch the ball away.

Every single club seems to have worked this out, yet apparently our coaching staff haven’t. These aren’t isolated mistakes. They’re recurring problems, and at some point the responsibility for fixing them has to lie with the manager. Frankly, even in some of the games we’ve won, we’ve been fortunate. If football were simply a case of telling players what to do and expecting them to work everything out themselves, it would ultimately come down to who has the better players. But football doesn’t always work that way.

The first thing you do when you’re conceding goals the way we are is make your team difficult to beat. Get the defensive organisation right, protect the backline and build from there. Yes, putting more bodies behind the ball and bolstering the midfield might make us a little duller going forward, but let’s be honest, the attacking statistics aren’t exactly suggesting we’re Barcelona at the moment.

We’re not a particularly fluent attacking side, and we don’t get the ball up the pitch quickly or effectively enough to make much of an impact anyway.

With the greatest respect in the world, blaming the players is a bit like turning around to Henderson and telling him to save the ball. That’s all very well, but if everyone in front of him isn’t doing their job, you’ve got a problem. Likewise, if you’re instructing defenders to play out from the back and they’re clearly not particularly good at it, surely the answer is to adapt your tactics to the players you’ve actually got?

That’s what coaching is supposed to be about. Identifying weaknesses, organising your players and finding a system that gets the best out of them.

And this brings me to Sage. I actually like the bloke. He seems amiable enough, and I’m sure he’s a decent person to have around. But the fact is he doesn’t seem to have a clue what to do when things start going against him. He’s 120-odd games into his managerial career, and the one time things really did go wrong, he ended up getting sacked. I don’t think he’s ever had to deal with a situation quite like this, particularly at Premier League level, where opposition sides, even the poorer ones, can work you out incredibly quickly.

My concern is that Sage simply doesn’t have the experience to get us out of this. He’s exhibiting all the signs of a naive manager who has a particular way of playing and doesn’t know what to do when it stops working.

I remember Peter Taylor back in 2007, after we’d conceded yet another sloppy goal, declaring, “I bet we don’t do that again.” And do you know what happened? The following week, we did exactly the same bloody thing.

I’m sure Sage would be a brilliant manager to have around if everything were going swimmingly. But managing when everything is going well is a very different proposition from managing when things are falling apart.

Glasner arrived at almost the perfect time, with a group of players who complemented one another, developed an understanding and became an incredibly effective unit. But that doesn’t happen with every squad.

For every Eze, there’s a Jordon Mutch. For every Olise, there’s a Max Meyer. You don’t always have the luxury of having exactly the players you want, and sometimes you have to cut your cloth accordingly.

That’s what good managers do. They recognise the limitations of their squad, adapt their tactics and make themselves difficult to beat.

Do you genuinely think Spurs had to spend much time in training this week working out how to beat us? I suspect the tactical briefing was fairly straightforward: put the ball towards the back post and see what happens.

And that’s ultimately my criticism of Sage. I don’t think he’s ever really had to cut his cloth before. Right now, he’s looking like a manager who doesn’t even know where the scissors are.
When he was appointed I expressed reservations on HOL due to inexperience as a manager.
I did not believe that 1 'Stand out' season in France equipped him for the demands of the PL at a time of player churn with key players departing and acquisitions having to be moulded into the side.
Having players like Mateta and Sarr (Nearly 40 goals between them last season) hardly available has not helped his cause.
Difficult time for him, the club and supporters - perhaps Sage has the 'Get me out of here' mindset !
 
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Yes it's a big mess.

If they do wait until after the Liverpool game (what feels like an inevitable loss) to make a change this will then only give any new manager the international break to assess the squad - of which most won't be there - and then go straight into two huge must win games against Hull and Coventry. Surely it'd be better to give a new man the Hoffenheim and Liverpool games to properly assess the team.

It's another mess I expect us to walk straight into though tbh, probably waiting to appoint a new manager halfway through the international break to leave them even less time.

Our indecisiveness comes to the fore in most transfer windows (both in and out) and it also feels as though Sage has been constantly working on a '2 games to avoid the sack' window since before the Leeds game. It just can't be a productive environment for anyone.

Bournemouth and Palace were in very similar situations at the end of last season, knowing a successful manager was leaving, the promise of European football, the need to grow the squad and the best players linked with moves away. In every facet they have dealt with those situations in a far superior and decisive manner than us and the difference between the clubs is now light and day. Mismanagement at multiple levels from us unfortunately which will reduce our opportunities drastically this season.

Thankfully the season is still relatively young and we're not yet cut adrift so the next decision can still bring some success but it has to be the correct one!!! Big pressure on the decision makers.
And that is what should have happened two games back. Let’s hope tomorrow is the day we get a new manager in. Not expecting miracles from a new person but he needs as much time as possible. Sage won’t keep us up, I’m sure of that :-(
 
To those who want Sage to remain, what exactly are they seeing that I’m perhaps missing?
Do they honestly see him putting in a defensive structure to prevent the concession of a couple of goals a game?
Do they see him organising us so that every ball towards the far post is a heart in the mouth moment as opposing players peel away to the far post unchallenged?
The errors are that basic.

I know there is an argument that it’s the same players, so what difference does a new manager make.
Well I don’t have to take you to far back to Holloway being replaced by Pulis.
We looked a totally different proposition under Pulis as a defensive structure was put in place and the whole team was forged into a proper unit knowing exactly what it was doing.

It wasn’t rocket science.
Pulis recognised, unlike Holloway, we were not capable of playing like Barcelona (as noble an aspiration as that may be) and maximised the talents of the players available to him and got them playing to their strengths in an organised set up.
 
I don’t think it matters whether Sage stays or goes. The squad is so lightweight and threadbare by Premier League standards, and we seem to have an ambitionless board who aren’t interested in investing the requisite amount to bring the squad up to scratch.
We struggled to take on a recognised manager/head coach in the summer, and I don’t see that there are too many out there that would want to risk their reputation now. I might be wrong of course. It’s only my opinion, for what it’s worth.
But I do get the impression that all of the recruitment is down to Messrs Parish and Hobbs, which does not inspire me with any confidence at all. If you’re asking a manager/head coach to get us out of this current mess then surely he needs to have some input into the recruitment.
 
To those who want Sage to remain, what exactly are they seeing that I’m perhaps missing?
Do they honestly see him putting in a defensive structure to prevent the concession of a couple of goals a game?
Do they see him organising us so that every ball towards the far post is a heart in the mouth moment as opposing players peel away to the far post unchallenged?
The errors are that basic.

I know there is an argument that it’s the same players, so what difference does a new manager make.
Well I don’t have to take you to far back to Holloway being replaced by Pulis.
We looked a totally different proposition under Pulis as a defensive structure was put in place and the whole team was forged into a proper unit knowing exactly what it was doing.


It wasn’t rocket science.
Pulis recognised, unlike Holloway, we were not capable of playing like Barcelona (as noble an aspiration as that may be) and maximised the talents of the players available to him and got them playing to their strengths in an organised set up.
When Pulis 'Took up the reins' we were struggling in 19th place, on 7 pts after 12 PL games.
At the end of the season, we finished in 11th position.
His signings that season were Wayne Hennessey, Scott Dann, Jason Puncheon, Joe Ledley and Tom Ince.
 
OK, that's your opinion but do you think any manager would be winning games with the circumstances I outlined?
Yes. I think a manager who knows how to organise a defence would have better results and not have conceded over 20 goals in 9 league games. A decent manager would have won more games from those first 9 games and played a system that suited his players.
 
The same argument could have been used with DeBoer.
Does that mean he should have been exempt from comment or criticism?

It is a discussion forum after all and the fact that a manager has a UEFA badge does not mean they are infallible or even not downright useless.
You may well be right. My point is that it's all too easy to say that the answer is to sack the manager. And if someone (no need to take this personally) thinks they can do better than Sage because they coach an under 9 side in Croydon it's hilarious.
We lost yesterday because we played Spurs when they are on the up (would that we could have played United yesterday) and because Mateta was sent off after twelve minutes. Neither he nor Sarr is going to get us out of the present situation. As to whether there is a manager out there who is capable of getting better out of the players currently available, is a moot point. The idea that the current crop of play will perform better for someone other than Sage is hypothetical.
 
I will always support our manager until they are nolonger in post. the only exception to that was Sir Steve . sacked by Jordan i stopped going . in truth I would have perfered a manager with Premier league experience Dyche or Frank's. the truth is we have to accept we have been fighting above a weight for a very long time thanks in part to Steve Parish and Wilf .
 
You may well be right. My point is that it's all too easy to say that the answer is to sack the manager. And if someone (no need to take this personally) thinks they can do better than Sage because they coach an under 9 side in Croydon it's hilarious.
We lost yesterday because we played Spurs when they are on the up (would that we could have played United yesterday) and because Mateta was sent off after twelve minutes. Neither he nor Sarr is going to get us out of the present situation. As to whether there is a manager out there who is capable of getting better out of the players currently available, is a moot point. The idea that the current crop of play will perform better for someone other than Sage is hypothetical.
Notwithstanding that Elwiss was one of my favourite Palace players ( who will ever forget the flicked header against Preston), I maintain that our strongest eleven can stay up but we need a manager who can organise a sound defence. We have now seen 11 games, enough to know that Sage can’t. I now feel the sooner we change, the better but please let it not be Dyche!
 
You may well be right. My point is that it's all too easy to say that the answer is to sack the manager. And if someone (no need to take this personally) thinks they can do better than Sage because they coach an under 9 side in Croydon it's hilarious.
We lost yesterday because we played Spurs when they are on the up (would that we could have played United yesterday) and because Mateta was sent off after twelve minutes. Neither he nor Sarr is going to get us out of the present situation. As to whether there is a manager out there who is capable of getting better out of the players currently available, is a moot point. The idea that the current crop of play will perform better for someone other than Sage is hypothetical.
Pulis took the same players as Holloway and transformed them into a totally different team.
Suddenly we saw some clean sheets and a cohesive unit.
Sure it's hypothetical that a new manager could get more out of the current crop.
Is that a strong enough reason not to make a change?
For what it's worth I've never coached a team in my life, but having watched football for 60 years I'm convinced that Sage will not set us up to prevent the alarming concession of goals.
 
I'm not saying I want this to happen (I don't), but how about Sage out, Dyche* in, and Wilf signed on a free for the rest of the season
Tactics ✅️
Squad depth ✅️
Ageing Prem star (a la Sunderland last season) ✅️
Palace stay up 🤔

Seriously, I think we are banking quite heavily of only 2 + Man C going down this season


* my spell checker tried to change this to Lychee. I wonder if Sean has this problem himself.
 
I don’t think it matters whether Sage stays or goes. The squad is so lightweight and threadbare by Premier League standards, and we seem to have an ambitionless board who aren’t interested in investing the requisite amount to bring the squad up to scratch.
We struggled to take on a recognised manager/head coach in the summer, and I don’t see that there are too many out there that would want to risk their reputation now. I might be wrong of course. It’s only my opinion, for what it’s worth.
But I do get the impression that all of the recruitment is down to Messrs Parish and Hobbs, which does not inspire me with any confidence at all. If you’re asking a manager/head coach to get us out of this current mess then surely he needs to have some input into the recruitment.
Rubbish, move on
 
I'm not saying I want this to happen (I don't), but how about Sage out, Dyche* in, and Wilf signed on a free for the rest of the season
Tactics ✅️
Squad depth ✅️
Ageing Prem star (a la Sunderland last season) ✅️
Palace stay up 🤔

Seriously, I think we are banking quite heavily of only 2 + Man C going down this season


* my spell checker tried to change this to Lychee. I wonder if Sean has this problem himself.

Banking on the Man City points deduction would be massively naive... One because who knows when that actually comes into effect... And TWO, the bigger problem is we currently look like we would be one of the +2 teams to go down with them.
 
Whoever becomes manager, if he looks at our decent squad, and says, i know i will play 3 at the back, with wingbacks, and 2 in CM, shoot him.
 
Whoever becomes manager, if he looks at our decent squad, and says, i know i will play 3 at the back, with wingbacks, and 2 in CM, shoot him.

If Dyche arrives, decides he's going to change his entire coaching philosophy to accommodate a back 3, I think that might be the end of you! 😂
 
Pulis took the same players as Holloway and transformed them into a totally different team.
Suddenly we saw some clean sheets and a cohesive unit.
Sure it's hypothetical that a new manager could get more out of the current crop.
Is that a strong enough reason not to make a change?
For what it's worth I've never coached a team in my life, but having watched football for 60 years I'm convinced that Sage will not set us up to prevent the alarming concession of goals.
It really is that simple, isn't it, Drill 4-4 into them as a unit, then 1-1 or 2 up.
 
If Dyche arrives, decides he's going to change his entire coaching philosophy to accommodate a back 3, I think that might be the end of you! 😂
Yes, if the new manager plays that formation, i will hang up my Scarf and hat, 57 years watching is enough, UD Lanzarote for me, if that happens.
 

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