Sage is sage

mtp1958 said:
That's a floored argument Pep didn't have any managerial experience before taking over Barcelona , so what do you call experience as in length of time , he has had 90+ games in the French lge with success , so I can never understand that argument
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With respect totally different circumstances being promoted from within the prestigious Barcelona setup and infrastructure.
When I made my statement I was not discounting Sage or predicting his downfall at our club.
At the forefront of my mind was a consideration that his limited experience could prove challenging for him.
Sometimes the hill can prove too high for the hiker.
 
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The question is whether Sage is committed to his tactics, or more pragmatic than that.

Whether we play a 343 system or something else is important, of course. The formation is relevant to whether round pegs go in square holes, and whether the best players can be all on the pitch together.

Even so, the formation is far less significant than the overall approach. Although in preseason he suggested he might do otherwise, and though it's very early and only a very limited sample size, it seems to me that Sage is trying to get the team to press more and play higher. Whether he switches to a back four matters far less than whether he sticks with that approach. No Palace team has successfully played that way, or anything other than deep and compact, for 15 years at least now. That's not a coincidence.

Going back to a deep block is the first thing a Dyche type replacement (which is what we'd get if Parish sacked Sage) would do. A deep block is not the holy grail, but playing on the front foot high up the pitch, leaving space behind you and leaving your defenders to cover a lot of ground only ever looks good if it works very well. If it goes even slightly wrong then it looks incredibly weak and flimsy. If it goes wrong at a lower mid table club then the manager just looks naïve.

It's high risk game to game, but also career-wise for Sage.
 
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Jacey said:
Many feel it to be unwise to criticise certain players in public,rather than behind closed doors.

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He hasn’t just dismissed them out of hand he has explained to them first before saying anything public , but surely the the players need to take responsibility for there own action ,

we as supporters vent our anger at players all the time at matches , should we do it in private , professional footballers need to grow up not cry for being told off for not following instructions
 
Willo said:
With respect totally different circumstances being promoted from within the prestigious Barcelona setup and infrastructure.
When I made my statement I was not discounting Sage or predicting his downfall at our club.
At the forefront of my mind was a consideration that his limited experience could prove challenging for him.
Sometimes the hill can prove too high for the hiker.
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Think its still a weak argument just because he come through the club doesn't mean he will be successful , Klop took 7 years at mainz before dortmond , so its swings and roundabouts , arthritis was at man city before Arsenal
 
Willo said:
I of course want Sage to succeed for obvious reasons and I can appreciate the challenges he is facing, perhaps more than he anticipated.
I am also cognisant of the fact that he has somewhat limited experience as a manager and I made this point on HOL after his appointment was announced.
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‘Limited experience’ ? There’s guys on here with NO experience but think they know better. Sage is no fool and I’m sure he and the coaching staff are well aware of the issues that people are raising. So keep calm and carry on. If when Mateta, Sarr, etc are back and we are having the same problems at the end of October then we should worry.
 
TheBigToePunt said:
The question is whether Sage is committed to his tactics, or more pragmatic than that.

Whether we play a 343 system or something else is important, of course. The formation is relevant to whether round pegs go in square holes, and whether the best players can be all on the pitch together.

Even so, the formation is far less significant than the overall approach. Although in preseason he suggested he might do otherwise, and though it's very early and only a very limited sample size, it seems to me that Sage is trying to get the team to press more and play higher. Whether he switches to a back four matters far less than whether he sticks with that approach. No Palace team has successfully played that way, or anything other than deep and compact, for 15 years at least now. That's not a coincidence.

Going back to a deep block is the first thing a Dyche type replacement (which is what we'd get if Parish sacked Sage) would do. A deep block is not the holy grail, but playing on the front foot high up the pitch, leaving space behind you and leaving your defenders to cover a lot of ground only ever looks good if it works very well. If it goes even slightly wrong then it looks incredibly weak and flimsy. If it goes wrong at a lower mid table club then the manager just looks naïve.

It's high risk game to game, but also career-wise for Sage.
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Playing higher up the pitch just means your own really slow defenders are going to get turned every time with a ball in behind. It's one reason why Liverpool can't carry it off anymore, Van Dyck has lost any recovery pace he might have had. And Liverpool were the exponents of the high press; it's ok I suppose if you have the players to do it, if not try something else.
 
park the bus said:
Playing higher up the pitch just means your own really slow defenders are going to get turned every time with a ball in behind. It's one reason why Liverpool can't carry it off anymore, Van Dyck has lost any recovery pace he might have had. And Liverpool were the exponents of the high press; it's ok I suppose if you have the players to do it, if not try something else.
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Yep. Can't imagine it working with our defenders. Or our forwards.

That's the question in my mind: Will Sage get the team to press high and make it work, or f*** it off and get them defending deep? He has to do one or the other, or else he'll be back in France by Xmas.

Also, can he even coach the latter method? A lot of coaches with youth academy backgrounds are very much of the modern school, press and possess. All very Pep. Not very Pulis. Would Sage even know how to organise a deep block/counter attack team? Has he ever done it before? Dunno.

A final factor is this: If a coach can get a lesser top flight club to mid table by playing either high-tempo pressing football, or heavy-possession based football, they are far more likely to appear on the radar of the big boys. There is a strong degree of self-interest there. Rogers did it at Swansea and got the Liverpool job. Pochettino did it at Saints and got the Spurs job. Recently, matey did it at Bournemouth and got the Liverpool job. Martinez even took Wigan down doing it (with the FA Cup, granted) and got the Everton job.

Meanwhile, Glasner wins three trophies playing pragmatically at Palace and no big club wants him. Nobody touches Dyche even after he gets Burnley into the Europe league, through league placing in the Premier League(!!!). I know he got the Everton job in the end, but only as a fire-fighter when they were f***ed.

What CV does Sage want for himself? I'm sure it's part of what is swirling around inside his head.
 
mtp1958 said:
Think its still a weak argument just because he come through the club doesn't mean he will be successful , Klop took 7 years at mainz before dortmond , so its swings and roundabouts , arthritis was at man city before Arsenal
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My riposte was a response to Guardiola being successful after from being promoted from within.
Apropos Klopp he was manager at Mainz for 7 years and 270 games before being appointed at Borussia Dortmund.
In respect of Sage, at the forefront of his mind was the fact that only had 3 years managerial experience before being appointed as our manager, he was being thrust into the PL and this relative inexperience might prove quite challenging.
 
TheBigToePunt said:
Yep. Can't imagine it working with our defenders. Or our forwards.

That's the question in my mind: Will Sage get the team to press high and make it work, or f*** it off and get them defending deep? He has to do one or the other, or else he'll be back in France by Xmas.

Also, can he even coach the latter method? A lot of coaches with youth academy backgrounds are very much of the modern school, press and possess. All very Pep. Not very Pulis. Would Sage even know how to organise a deep block/counter attack team? Has he ever done it before? Dunno.

A final factor is this: If a coach can get a lesser top flight club to mid table by playing either high-tempo pressing football, or heavy-possession based football, they are far more likely to appear on the radar of the big boys. There is a strong degree of self-interest there. Rogers did it at Swansea and got the Liverpool job. Pochettino did it at Saints and got the Spurs job. Recently, matey did it at Bournemouth and got the Liverpool job. Martinez even took Wigan down doing it (with the FA Cup, granted) and got the Everton job.

Meanwhile, Glasner wins three trophies playing pragmatically at Palace and no big club wants him. Nobody touches Dyche even after he gets Burnley into the Europe league, through league placing in the Premier League(!!!). I know he got the Everton job in the end, but only as a fire-fighter when they were f***ed.

What CV does Sage want for himself? I'm sure it's part of what is swirling around inside his head.
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As ever, some interesting, insightful and valid points raised.
 
Willo said:
Last night as I entered a Public House I met a supporter whom I have known for a few years.
After greeting me, his words were "We are down" and he is a gentleman usually positive about our prospects.
My riposte was that the season is in its infancy, and he countered with suggestions centred around a replacement. He believes Sean Dyche would be an ideal appointment bringing with him Ian Woan whose father Alan played for our club.
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Presumably the pub’s name is Jurassic Park ?
 
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