Romaine Esse

[Stirlingsays]

Indeed, time will tell.
I for one wish him well, if only insofar as I have some sympathy for the view that Glasner could and should have managed him better by keeping his criticisms private. I thought that was poor. A bad rep seems to have attached itself to the kid thereafter, and I've no idea if he really deserves it.

Glasner is a manager of contrasts.

His default demeanour was of a calm, calculating and assured man who managed well.

However, despite his obvious talents as an organiser and driller of team coordination on the pitch, we saw that he lost his rag quite easily when situations didn't go his way and reacted emotionally in public. I think he wasn't great at instilling confidence back into some players.

While we obviously rate him as a manager for what he achieved here (though personally I think there were a lot of fine margins and luck in those achievements) I think that emotionalism won't fare well at Forest considering his boss is also highly emotional and trigger happy.

 

[RubinsCube]

Glasner is a manager of contrasts.

His default demeanour was of a calm, calculating and assured man who managed well.

However, despite his obvious talents as an organiser and driller of team coordination on the pitch, we saw that he lost his rag quite easily when situations didn't go his way and reacted emotionally in public. I think he wasn't great at instilling confidence back into some players.

While we obviously rate him as a manager for what he achieved here (though personally I think there were a lot of fine margins and luck in those achievements) I think that emotionalism won't fare well at Forest considering his boss is also highly emotional and trigger happy.

A very apposite summary of the man during his time in SE25.

I felt he saw results nosediving, then:

1. considered this would reflect on the manager,
2. connected this fairly or unfairly with a lack of board support and player sales,
3. saw an opportunity to "circle the wagons" with the players and at the same time defend his reputation, and
4. then decided to move on.

Interestingly his decision to move on did not exactly overlap with the nosedive in form. The latter followed the former.

I agree with you: his time at Forest will likely mirror his time with us in terms of length and board relationship, hopefully without the trophies.

 

[Gary St.Andrews]

Some players click with managers and some don’t. Esse comes into that latter category and you could see his confidence evaporate before our eyes, which was a shame. On reflection we paid over the odds for him and this was definitely one that didn’t work out!

 

[cROYdonrogers]

I think Sage has taken a look at him and others, as he's been forced to do and sadly in the case of Esse said not for me.
I remember one game where he came on Paddy had him to the side talking to him away from others and I guess trying to encourage/motivate him. There may be a coach out there who can harness his undoubted raw talent, but it wasn't Glasner, Lampard or seemingly Sage, so you wonder. Yes cut our losses.

 

[MancunianEagle]

Roy who was of course famous for giving opportunities to young flair players who lacked discipline and positional awareness…

When Johnson last played in the championship, he managed 16 goals as a 19/20 year old and he’s never have had to take a loan back there.

I’m no Johnson fan, but Esse is not in the same category as it stands - we don’t have to drag his time with us out because he’s a South Londoner who fits the profile of a Palace player.

He didnt seem to mind ebs who was extremely raw coming here

 

[Save Dwindlehurst]

Just can’t see this working out. Sell.

 

[taylors lovechild]

I saw him play for England U21s last season. He scored, got an assist, was a constant threat, and as his confidence grew, he looked a different player. Interestingly, when he came off the bench, he initially looked like the player that has struggled with us. This is why I think with the right handling he could still be a very good player, as it feels like confidence is the big issue. Having said that, the top professional athletes all talk about how important mental strength is in getting to the top, so maybe he just isn't mentally strong enough. Time will tell.

 

[mtp1958]

He didnt seem to mind ebs who was extremely raw coming here

Big difference Ebs was older 22 played 124 games scored 25 so not that raw ,

Esse was 19 , 61 games 6 goals big difference

 

[doombear]

He didnt seem to mind ebs who was extremely raw coming here

When he came, Ebs was already at a different level to Esse and the club had just paid a very big fee (for Palace for an untried youngster) for him. It was the beginning of a new policy of buying young talent with promise. Very much a make or break purchase. Hodgson had been starved of new players other than a few journeymen. He was hardly going to refuse to play Eze.

 

[Attilio1905]

I’m no Johnson fan, but Esse is not in the same category as it stands - we don’t have to drag his time with us out because he’s a South Londoner who fits the profile of a Palace player.

I'd be interested to know why you'd think Esse fits the profile of a Palace player?

Ex-Millwall, seemingly disinterested/attitude issue, over priced and not very good. If that's the profile of a typical Palace player we're fooked!

 

[TheBigToePunt]

When he came, Ebs was already at a different level to Esse and the club had just paid a very big fee (for Palace for an untried youngster) for him. It was the beginning of a new policy of buying young talent with promise. Very much a make or break purchase. Hodgson had been starved of new players other than a few journeymen. He was hardly going to refuse to play Eze.

Agreed. Plus, whilst Eze, Olise, Wharton, and Guehi all developed significantly over their time with us, they have something else in common: They were also all good enough to play from the very beginning and, in most cases, strengthened the team from the outset.

We all know how good they became, but sometimes forget how good they were to start with.

Some of our other young hopeful signings like Esse, Franca, and maybe even Canvot might well have lots of potential to develop but on the day we signed them they weren't remotely good enough to play in the team, and certainly not to strengthen it. As a result they struggled for games which in turn prohibited their development.

Canvot is a slightly unusual case in that he has had game time and now seems likely to be a regular, but that is only through unusual circumstances. Even by the end of the season and with a good few games under his belt, he often looked below the required standard for the premier league. He benefited from the Conference League run, which gave him regular football in the first team but at a lower standard. Those circumstances won't come around again.

Even then, Canvot would surely have joined Esse and Franca in deep freeze if not for the forced sale of Guehi, and the club being unable to sign the experienced replacement they and Glasner wanted. Just think about that. They signed Canvot for around £20m but when a spot came up in the team, they tried to get someone else in to play instead of him. That's how off the pace he was/is.

It's one thing to spend £15-20m on a youngster who, if nothing else, can realistically play in your team without making it weaker, and quite another to pay those sums for one who isn't 'ready' for a regular role in the team yet. We have maybe done a bit too much of the latter. We aren't a big enough club to buy players to loan out, we need our transfer budget spent in practical ways on the team.

For me, the golden rule must be that if a player doesn't seem good enough to play immediately then probably best you don't buy him, however much potential you think he might have. He probably won't get to fulfil that potential at Palace as the circumstances are too unforgiving for us to carry anyone.

Buying young potential before loaning it out in the hope it develops into a good enough player for the team has literally never worked once for us, as far as I can recall.

 

[Norbury Old Git]

I don’t put Canvot in the same bracket as the other two. He was voted MOTM in his very first game and has developed since then hopefully like AWB and Tyrick Mitchell. Yes there are raw streaks and mistakes mainly caused by over confidence but all players suffer that. Let’s see how far he can go.

 

[doombear]

I don’t put Canvot in the same bracket as the other two. He was voted MOTM in his very first game and has developed since then hopefully like AWB and Tyrick Mitchell. Yes there are raw streaks and mistakes mainly caused by over confidence but all players suffer that. Let’s see how far he can go.

I'm mostly with you re Canvot. He's been overconfident on occasions which has led to mistakes but he is comfortable on the ball , tackles well and finds some excellent passes (his 60yd pass to Cardines in the Como Cup game is the most recent example).

However, he still has much to learn when it comes to defensive headers in the box. He's been caught out too many times for my liking. If he can't adjust his timing and positioning then he (and we) may need to think about a different position - a defensive mid perhaps?

 

[taylors lovechild]

The average age for a PL centre-back is over 26, with the peak age thought to be 26-30, so for Canvot to be playing regularly and performing at a high standard is impressive. He'll hopefully learn from his mistakes, and we'll have another star by the end of the season.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Agreed. Plus, whilst Eze, Olise, Wharton, and Guehi all developed significantly over their time with us, they have something else in common: They were also all good enough to play from the very beginning and, in most cases, strengthened the team from the outset.

We all know how good they became, but sometimes forget how good they were to start with.

Some of our other young hopeful signings like Esse, Franca, and maybe even Canvot might well have lots of potential to develop but on the day we signed them they weren't remotely good enough to play in the team, and certainly not to strengthen it. As a result they struggled for games which in turn prohibited their development.

Canvot is a slightly unusual case in that he has had game time and now seems likely to be a regular, but that is only through unusual circumstances. Even by the end of the season and with a good few games under his belt, he often looked below the required standard for the premier league. He benefited from the Conference League run, which gave him regular football in the first team but at a lower standard. Those circumstances won't come around again.

Even then, Canvot would surely have joined Esse and Franca in deep freeze if not for the forced sale of Guehi, and the club being unable to sign the experienced replacement they and Glasner wanted. Just think about that. They signed Canvot for around £20m but when a spot came up in the team, they tried to get someone else in to play instead of him. That's how off the pace he was/is.

It's one thing to spend £15-20m on a youngster who, if nothing else, can realistically play in your team without making it weaker, and quite another to pay those sums for one who isn't 'ready' for a regular role in the team yet. We have maybe done a bit too much of the latter. We aren't a big enough club to buy players to loan out, we need our transfer budget spent in practical ways on the team.

For me, the golden rule must be that if a player doesn't seem good enough to play immediately then probably best you don't buy him, however much potential you think he might have. He probably won't get to fulfil that potential at Palace as the circumstances are too unforgiving for us to carry anyone.

Buying young potential before loaning it out in the hope it develops into a good enough player for the team has literally never worked once for us, as far as I can recall.

I'd strongly disagree with this - there is of course more risk in buying young, but there's also significantly more upside. Of course there's a balance to be struck between ensuring the current playing squad is up to standard, but we should be continually picking up young players IMO.

I'm pretty confident Canvot will end up being an £80m+ centre half in the next year or two - if we'd waited until he was more developed to pull the trigger, we would have never been able to sign him.

We haven't yet lost anything on Esse and Franca, and even given their lack of performance and development, both would still fetch a very reasonable fee based on their potential - we're seeing that first hand with Esse now... it's gone about as poorly as it could, and we still look likely to almost cover our costs on a sale.

The nature of signing young players is that it carries risk, but I certainly don't think we should stop doing it based on a few not quite going to plan - we know better than most that when it does go to plan, you can end up with players of a much higher quality than you could ever hope to sign otherwise, and you can profit massively when they move on.

Eze and Olise effectively 'replaced' the likes of Schlupp and Ayew in our attack, so yes they did improve the team immediately, but from a much, much lower base. Esse and Franca had to come in and 'replace' Eze and Olise, so improvement on that is obviously much harder to do. The progress of the club in the last 5 years mean finding young players who can come in and raise our level immediately is considerably harder than it was.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

The average age for a PL centre-back is over 26, with the peak age thought to be 26-30, so for Canvot to be playing regularly and performing at a high standard is impressive. He'll hopefully learn from his mistakes, and we'll have another star by the end of the season.

He's one of the best u21 defenders in the world.

 

[mtp1958]

I'm mostly with you re Canvot. He's been overconfident on occasions which has led to mistakes but he is comfortable on the ball , tackles well and finds some excellent passes (his 60yd pass to Cardines in the Como Cup game is the most recent example).

However, he still has much to learn when it comes to defensive headers in the box. He's been caught out too many times for my liking. If he can't adjust his timing and positioning then he (and we) may need to think about a different position - a defensive mid perhaps?

Guihi wasn't the best at timing jumps and very often caught flat footed in defence , Canvot was brought for the future and to learn from other 3 before Guihi left , but he has done very well considering his age

 

[TheBigToePunt]

I'd strongly disagree with this - there is of course more risk in buying young, but there's also significantly more upside. Of course there's a balance to be struck between ensuring the current playing squad is up to standard, but we should be continually picking up young players IMO.

I'm pretty confident Canvot will end up being an £80m+ centre half in the next year or two - if we'd waited until he was more developed to pull the trigger, we would have never been able to sign him.

We haven't yet lost anything on Esse and Franca, and even given their lack of performance and development, both would still fetch a very reasonable fee based on their potential - we're seeing that first hand with Esse now... it's gone about as poorly as it could, and we still look likely to almost cover our costs on a sale.

The nature of signing young players is that it carries risk, but I certainly don't think we should stop doing it based on a few not quite going to plan - we know better than most that when it does go to plan, you can end up with players of a much higher quality than you could ever hope to sign otherwise, and you can profit massively when they move on.

Eze and Olise effectively 'replaced' the likes of Schlupp and Ayew in our attack, so yes they did improve the team immediately, but from a much, much lower base. Esse and Franca had to come in and 'replace' Eze and Olise, so improvement on that is obviously much harder to do. The progress of the club in the last 5 years mean finding young players who can come in and raise our level immediately is considerably harder than it was.

We might get some of our money back for Esse, the details are not yet apparent. I would be pleasantly surprised if we did. I can't imagine us getting anything much for Franca. We have done the road-testing on those two for all the other clubs who might once have been interested in signing them. They will all have seen the lack of development two years down the line. I can't imagine why anyone would pay us what we paid for them now. We paid for hope value, there is less hope now.

On a more general level you may well be right about signing potential, of course. Brighton certainly seem to see things much as you do. Mind you, they have spent a lot of money on young potential that didn't work out at all, and if not for Chelsea being morons Brighton would have been in serious financial hot water a couple of times in recent years. They get credit for having a plan but it's not obviously a safe or even very sensible one. They have required a good bit of luck, too.

Moreover, what use is it to Palace if Canvot becomes an £80m player but the team overall gets weaker? Harry Maguire went for that sort of money and it did Leicester no good in the end. Indeed, they sold loads of youngsters for a profit and just went backwards as a club. Look at them now. Their best team was one put together from odds and sods, with loads of 'journeymen' rather than the result of clever moneyball economics and data. Same is true of Southampton.

I agree that as Eze and Olise were replacing Ayew and Shlupp (or maybe Townsend) the bar wasn't prohibitively high for them. Thing is, the bar isn't high now. Esse and Franca can't get past Johnson and Pino. If they were remotely good enough (even without being as good as Eze and Olise etc) then they would have been playing already. In the hope of maximum profits and not missing out, the club has plucked these kids from the vine far too early.

To be fair to the club, I don't think they are totally hell-bent on only signing potential. The signings of Larsen, Johnson, probably Pino as well seemed to be about paying the going rate to have reliable, proven senior players, around whom a few youngsters could be sprinkled. It is the failure of those senior players that has placed us under strain. As a result, I don't feel like we have the capacity to take the same risks with youthful potential as we might otherwise have had.

Ultimately, we always need to have a team good enough for the league, whatever its individual potential might or might not be. As things stand we don't seem to have one. I cannot see the point in signing potential in such circumstances.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

We might get some of our money back for Esse, the details are not yet apparent. I would be pleasantly surprised if we did. I can't imagine us getting anything much for Franca. We have done the road-testing on those two for all the other clubs who might once have been interested in signing them. They will all have seen the lack of development two years down the line. I can't imagine why anyone would pay us what we paid for them now. We paid for hope value, there is less hope now.

On a more general level you may well be right about signing potential, of course. Brighton certainly seem to see things much as you do. Mind you, they have spent a lot of money on young potential that didn't work out at all, and if not for Chelsea being morons Brighton would have been in serious financial hot water a couple of times in recent years. They get credit for having a plan but it's not obviously a safe or even very sensible one. They have required a good bit of luck, too.

Moreover, what use is it to Palace if Canvot becomes an £80m player but the team overall gets weaker? Harry Maguire went for that sort of money and it did Leicester no good in the end. Indeed, they sold loads of youngsters for a profit and just went backwards as a club. Look at them now. Their best team was one put together from odds and sods, with loads of 'journeymen' rather than the result of clever moneyball economics and data. Same is true of Southampton.

I agree that as Eze and Olise were replacing Ayew and Shlupp (or maybe Townsend) the bar wasn't prohibitively high for them. Thing is, the bar isn't high now. Esse and Franca can't get past Johnson and Pino. If they were remotely good enough (even without being as good as Eze and Olise etc) then they would have been playing already. In the hope of maximum profits and not missing out, the club has plucked these kids from the vine far too early.

To be fair to the club, I don't think they are totally hell-bent on only signing potential. The signings of Larsen, Johnson, probably Pino as well seemed to be about paying the going rate to have reliable, proven senior players, around whom a few youngsters could be sprinkled. It is the failure of those senior players that has placed us under strain. As a result, I don't feel like we have the capacity to take the same risks with youthful potential as we might otherwise have had.

Ultimately, we always need to have a team good enough for the league, whatever its individual potential might or might not be. As things stand we don't seem to have one. I cannot see the point in signing potential in such circumstances.

We pretty much know what the offer for Esse is, and it's not far off what we paid for him - I don't think we need to speculate on that.

I think the 'use' of having an £80m asset is very apparent. What you do with your recruitment outside of that can of course still go wrong, as it did with Leicester, but obviously an £80m sale is not a cause of their demise.

The club are not remotely "hell-bent" on signing potential - we've spunked so much money on 'ready made' senior players in the last couple of years, vastly outweighing the spending on the likes of Franca and Esse. It also shows that there are no guarantees in any transfer signings, no matter how 'proven'.

I agree that maintaining the quality of the first team is the priority, but it's not an either/or between the two, and that primary objective becomes way easier when you have a steady stream of young players challenging for spots.

 

[MrRobbo]

Agreed. Plus, whilst Eze, Olise, Wharton, and Guehi all developed significantly over their time with us, they have something else in common: They were also all good enough to play from the very beginning and, in most cases, strengthened the team from the outset.

We all know how good they became, but sometimes forget how good they were to start with.

Some of our other young hopeful signings like Esse, Franca, and maybe even Canvot might well have lots of potential to develop but on the day we signed them they weren't remotely good enough to play in the team, and certainly not to strengthen it. As a result they struggled for games which in turn prohibited their development.

Canvot is a slightly unusual case in that he has had game time and now seems likely to be a regular, but that is only through unusual circumstances. Even by the end of the season and with a good few games under his belt, he often looked below the required standard for the premier league. He benefited from the Conference League run, which gave him regular football in the first team but at a lower standard. Those circumstances won't come around again.

Even then, Canvot would surely have joined Esse and Franca in deep freeze if not for the forced sale of Guehi, and the club being unable to sign the experienced replacement they and Glasner wanted. Just think about that. They signed Canvot for around £20m but when a spot came up in the team, they tried to get someone else in to play instead of him. That's how off the pace he was/is.

It's one thing to spend £15-20m on a youngster who, if nothing else, can realistically play in your team without making it weaker, and quite another to pay those sums for one who isn't 'ready' for a regular role in the team yet. We have maybe done a bit too much of the latter. We aren't a big enough club to buy players to loan out, we need our transfer budget spent in practical ways on the team.

For me, the golden rule must be that if a player doesn't seem good enough to play immediately then probably best you don't buy him, however much potential you think he might have. He probably won't get to fulfil that potential at Palace as the circumstances are too unforgiving for us to carry anyone.

Buying young potential before loaning it out in the hope it develops into a good enough player for the team has literally never worked once for us, as far as I can recall.

Broadly I agree.

However, our team/squad is much more competitive then it is back there.

To get in the team Esse has to get past a crop of international players.

Even last season, Glasner have Uche, a full international that he just decided to freeze out.