War in Ukraine

[Stirlingsays]

Seriously?

By way of example. Chinese special forces are about 30000 in number. I imagine they are trained to peak, have every technical advantage and are competent at what they do. But...

By reputation they are overrated. Why?

No operational experience particularly against their most likely opponents (whoever that may be?).

Our armed forces are supply stretched but they can squeeze everything out of very little and are still considered first tier even against militaries that are far better resourced. Why?

Because they never enjoyed any real extended period of peace since the War especially, I suspect, our special forces.

We are heavily invested in Ukraine not to protect them but to prepare us against our most likely enemy and to project power. We have the Germans and the French following us. We have a sizeable presence in the Balkans. The Poles are armed to the teeth. And Russia now has a taste of what we have. The odd testy skirmish at its weakest borders aside, Putin knows it is suicide to cross into NATO territory.

And there is no time like the present stepping up just as the US pulls back. Failing to support Ukraine would send an appalling message to Russia that Europe was weak without our big brother and there for the taking.

Some of what you say here is debatable but it's pointless arguing over what's debatable.
No, what's wrong is the idea that Putin's Russia was ever a threat to Western Europe. We know why the Ukraine war started and we should be playing no part in it......With the exception of Trump's Iran decision it was the most avoidable war I've ever seen.

I've no problem with the expansion on defence spending but that's been my position for many years before Ukraine. A strong military is common sense for many hard and soft power reasons. However, this being done so that we need to be ready to go to war with Russia is nuts.....We should have never been in this position....and there won't be a physical invasion that threatens us anyway.

So any support for escalation into some 1980s type 'soviet invasion' in fantasy for several reasons, the least of which is manpower. Especially when drone and anti drone warfare means that it'll largely a stalemate (Russia making small gains) at the moment even with Russia out manning Ukraine.....it is just misguided......and also extremely expensive compared to coming to terms with Russia and enjoying low energy prices.

It's not our fault that Ukraine went with the US state department and their bigger brown envelopes. Their elites lied to and then fecked their own people, much as ours do here.

It's not our fault that they listened to Biden and Johnson back in 2022 and now have a far far bleaker future. I was on here saying come to an agreement....they could have got slightly better terms with negotiation than what was on the table....but their eyes got too big and they thought they could push Russia out.

Well, if you bet on black and it lands red it's your miscalculation......The British taxpayer shouldn't be on the hock for poor decision making by foreign elites.

But we know what the real reasons for this war are little to do with morality.

 

[silvertop]

Some of what you say here is debatable but it's pointless arguing over what's debatable.
No, what's wrong is the idea that Putin's Russia was ever a threat to Western Europe. We know why the Ukraine war started and we should be playing no part in it......With the exception of Trump's Iran decision it was the most avoidable war I've ever seen.

I've no problem with the expansion on defence spending but that's been my position for many years before Ukraine. A strong military is common sense for many hard and soft power reasons. However, this being done so that we need to be ready to go to war with Russia is nuts.....We should have never been in this position....and there won't be a physical invasion that threatens us anyway.

So any support for escalation into some 1980s type 'soviet invasion' in fantasy for several reasons, the least of which is manpower. Especially when drone and anti drone warfare means that it'll largely a stalemate (Russia making small gains) at the moment even with Russia out manning Ukraine.....it is just misguided......and also extremely expensive compared to coming to terms with Russia and enjoying low energy prices.

It's not our fault that Ukraine went with the US state department and their bigger brown envelopes. Their elites lied to and then fecked their own people, much as ours do here.

It's not our fault that they listened to Biden and Johnson back in 2022 and now have a far far bleaker future. I was on here saying come to an agreement....they could have got slightly better terms with negotiation than what was on the table....but their eyes got too big and they thought they could push Russia out.

Well, if you bet on black and it lands red it's your miscalculation......The British taxpayer shouldn't be on the hock for poor decision making by foreign elites.

But we know what the real reasons for this war are little to do with morality.

The real immorality is us using Ukraine as a step in our ladder.

We couldn't give 2 sh1ts for the people of that long suffering nation.

And the hypocrisy of saying we do is stomach turning.

But I'm conflicted as I also understand why we must do it.

 

[Stirlingsays]

The real immorality is us using Ukraine as a step in our ladder.

We couldn't give 2 sh1ts for the people of that long suffering nation.

And the hypocrisy of saying we do is stomach turning.

Before this war started I just regarded them as Eastern Europeans with no other connection other than being where the Chernobyl nuclear explosion occurred.

I do have the European connection, so I wouldn't say I don't give two sh1ts in those terms. I have sympathy for any nation soon to experience the same enforced third world immigration and alphabet policies that the rest of Europe has been subject to......Immigration probably on a much higher scale.

Unless they can push back hard it's bleak.

 

[McAhuna]

Before this war started I just regarded them as Eastern Europeans with no other connection other than being where the Chernobyl nuclear explosion occurred.

I do have the European connection, so I wouldn't say I don't give two sh1ts in those terms. I have sympathy for any nation soon to experience the same enforced third world immigration and alphabet policies that the rest of Europe has been subject to......Immigration probably on a much higher scale.

Unless they can push back hard it's bleak.

Ukraine has been a mafia state for a long time.

I have family in Prague. Pre-war, going back 20 years ago, Ukrainian immigrants we treated with a mixture of pity and suspicion. Pity because it was known that they would be having to pay a portion of their wages to Ukrainian criminal gangs 'for protection'. Suspicion because the greater fear was that they might actually be mafia themselves.

A story of our times: An elderly relative of mine took pity on a Ukrainian family and let them stay in some spare living space he had in his basement. Fortunately, it turned out ok. But his Czech neighbours weren't happy at all with him for bringing Ukrainians into the community and let him know in no uncertain terms.
Fast forward a few years and war broke out. My elderly relative was ambivalent. He had served with Russian troops in Warsaw Pact training exercises, and liked the Russians as people, so he kept his thoughts on the war to himself.
But suddenly those same neighbours who gave him hell were singing 'Slava Ukraine' and waved Blue and Yellow flags outside their houses. Fake virtue-signalling at its absolute worst, just as we see here.

 

[McAhuna]

The real immorality is us using Ukraine as a step in our ladder.

We couldn't give 2 sh1ts for the people of that long suffering nation.

And the hypocrisy of saying we do is stomach turning.

But I'm conflicted as I also understand why we must do it.

I assumed you meant the western military-industrial complex couldn't give 2 sh1ts about ordinary Ukrainians?
Which is why I liked the post.

 

[silvertop]

I assumed you meant the western military-industrial complex couldn't give 2 sh1ts about ordinary Ukrainians?
Which is why I liked the post.

I meant our military-industrial complex, but your extension is equally acceptable.

We are using Ukraine as a training exercise and projection of power to keep Russia in their box, our military sharp and our voice heard. These are all critical for our security at a time when tensions, long suppressed, are rising.

But there are human costs.

 

[McAhuna]

I meant our military-industrial complex, but your extension is equally acceptable.

We are using Ukraine as a training exercise and projection of power to keep Russia in their box, our military sharp and our voice heard. These are all critical for our security at a time when tensions, long suppressed, are rising.

But there are human costs.

Agree with the first two sentences, but lost me with that third sentence in bold.

I am not sure fighting a proxy third world war using the blood of Ukrainians is helpful for our security at all, quite the opposite.
Our involvement, and our willingness to take the conflict to Russia's borders has been the cause of increased tensions. It has helped create a sense of inevitable and impending major conflict, encouraged all parties to 'choose their side' and increase military spending. It has encouraged Russia, China, Iran, North Korea and the BRICs nations to draw closer, share expertise and technology. The US and its gulf allies felt the full consequences of that in recent conflict with Iran.

I am failing to see any benefits. Western policy on Ukraine going back three decades or so, and particularly since 2014, has been an unmitigated disaster.

 

[silvertop]

Agree with the first two sentences, but lost me with that third sentence in bold.

I am not sure fighting a proxy third world war using the blood of Ukrainians is helpful for our security at all, quite the opposite.
Our involvement, and our willingness to take the conflict to Russia's borders has been the cause of increased tensions. It has helped create a sense of inevitable and impending major conflict, encouraged all parties to 'choose their side' and increase military spending. It has encouraged Russia, China, Iran, North Korea and the BRICs nations to draw closer, share expertise and technology. The US and its gulf allies felt the full consequences of that in recent conflict with Iran.

I am failing to see any benefits. Western policy on Ukraine going back three decades or so, and particularly since 2014, has been an unmitigated disaster.

Like you, I agree much of the post e.g. the last sentence. I also agree earlier posts dealing with what a corrupt, neo-Nazi, gangster paradise Ukraine was (and is?) and question whether it was worth protecting. But..

...take Poland. Prior to the German invasion it was (wait for it) a corrupt military Junta. An inconvenient fact many brush over to feed the narrative of a state worth protecting. It wasn't. The people, however, were.

And when you consider it, we caused undue hardship and death for the occupied people of many nations by collateral death through bombing, creating partisan resistance etc.; but do e.g. the Czechs, the Danes and the Poles hold this against us? The Norwegians still send us a tree at Christmas.

And my point has comparisons. On that occasion we were addressing Axis expansion into countries largely aligned with ours with little real risk of effective direct invasion. Same here; and largely the same countries. The only difference is that, had Halifax been handed the keys, we would have been a German protectorate by the end of 1942 without a sea invasion or shot fired. On this occasion, Russia's control through expansion, along with those aligned to them, would be entirely eco-political, with the world order shifting towards those very nations you cite.

Russia has been kept in check and we are proven to be an effective top tier military. That makes the proxy war worth it. And despite the massive additional deaths and misery, the Ukrainians will also thank us, even if they lose.

 

[McAhuna]

Like you, I agree much of the post e.g. the last sentence. I also agree earlier posts dealing with what a corrupt, neo-Nazi, gangster paradise Ukraine was (and is?) and question whether it was worth protecting. But..

...take Poland. Prior to the German invasion it was (wait for it) a corrupt military Junta. An inconvenient fact many brush over to feed the narrative of a state worth protecting. It wasn't. The people, however, were.

And when you consider it, we caused undue hardship and death for the occupied people of many nations by collateral death through bombing, creating partisan resistance etc.; but do e.g. the Czechs, the Danes and the Poles hold this against us? The Norwegians still send us a tree at Christmas.

And my point has comparisons. On that occasion we were addressing Axis expansion into countries largely aligned with ours with little real risk of effective direct invasion. Same here; and largely the same countries. The only difference is that, had Halifax been handed the keys, we would have been a German protectorate by the end of 1942 without a sea invasion or shot fired. On this occasion, Russia's control through expansion, along with those aligned to them, would be entirely eco-political, with the world order shifting towards those very nations you cite.

Russia has been kept in check and we are proven to be an effective top tier military. That makes the proxy war worth it. And despite the massive additional deaths and misery, the Ukrainians will also thank us, even if they lose.

WW2 comparisons can sound a bit tired and cliched if we are not careful. But if we really want to go there, people should really research Bandera, including the extent to which he is venerated in Ukraine today. Ukraine was far from innocent.
Let's not forget that German seizures of Polish and other nations territory in WW2 was followed by massacres and ethnic cleansing. There is no comparison with Russian occupation of Crimea, Luhansk and Donbass - largely ethnically Russian territories that welcomed Russian intervention.
Even in non-occupied Ukraine, the majority support a peace settlement with Russia, even if it means permanently surrendering the above territories.
Ukrainian Support for War Effort Collapses
Press releases and reports - Opinions and views of Ukrainians on issues of war and peace, trust in Western partners, and the internal situation: December 2025
So, No - I doubt very much they will thank us for denying them elections and using their country as an ongoing testing ground for our military hardware.

 

[silvertop]

WW2 comparisons can sound a bit tired and cliched if we are not careful. But if we really want to go there, people should really research Bandera, including the extent to which he is venerated in Ukraine today. Ukraine was far from innocent.
Let's not forget that German seizures of Polish and other nations territory in WW2 was followed by massacres and ethnic cleansing. There is no comparison with Russian occupation of Crimea, Luhansk and Donbass - largely ethnically Russian territories that welcomed Russian intervention.
Even in non-occupied Ukraine, the majority support a peace settlement with Russia, even if it means permanently surrendering the above territories.
Ukrainian Support for War Effort Collapses
Press releases and reports - Opinions and views of Ukrainians on issues of war and peace, trust in Western partners, and the internal situation: December 2025
So, No - I doubt very much they will thank us for denying them elections and using their country as an ongoing testing ground for our military hardware.

What the Germans did is not relevant to the comparison save I agree that a sizeable chunk of those within Ukrainian territory welcomed the Russians with open arms.

Those ethnic Ukrainians to the west, not so sure?

As an aside, had the Germans behaved as a benevolent liberating force rather than the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse when they invaded Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus etc. I think that War would have been very different. One for another thread...

 

[ASCPFC]

Like you, I agree much of the post e.g. the last sentence. I also agree earlier posts dealing with what a corrupt, neo-Nazi, gangster paradise Ukraine was (and is?) and question whether it was worth protecting. But..

...take Poland. Prior to the German invasion it was (wait for it) a corrupt military Junta. An inconvenient fact many brush over to feed the narrative of a state worth protecting. It wasn't. The people, however, were.

And when you consider it, we caused undue hardship and death for the occupied people of many nations by collateral death through bombing, creating partisan resistance etc.; but do e.g. the Czechs, the Danes and the Poles hold this against us? The Norwegians still send us a tree at Christmas.

And my point has comparisons. On that occasion we were addressing Axis expansion into countries largely aligned with ours with little real risk of effective direct invasion. Same here; and largely the same countries. The only difference is that, had Halifax been handed the keys, we would have been a German protectorate by the end of 1942 without a sea invasion or shot fired. On this occasion, Russia's control through expansion, along with those aligned to them, would be entirely eco-political, with the world order shifting towards those very nations you cite.

Russia has been kept in check and we are proven to be an effective top tier military. That makes the proxy war worth it. And despite the massive additional deaths and misery, the Ukrainians will also thank us, even if they lose.

Have a look into how the UK have not been useful dealing with the way warfare has changed. Certainly no where near ready for the hybrid or drone warfare currently.
Although, clearly, observing what is happening will hopefully be useful. Radical change is required but complacency and ineptitude abound.

 

[McAhuna]

Have a look into how the UK have not been useful dealing with the way warfare has changed. Certainly no where near ready for the hybrid or drone warfare currently.
Although, clearly, observing what is happening will hopefully be useful. Radical change is required but complacency and ineptitude abound.

I am sure we're all very grateful that our military is now slightly more competent in eastern front warfare techniques.

As George Galloway put it "The problem with our Royal Navy is that they are deployed in every sea except our own"

 

[ASCPFC]

I am sure we're all very grateful that our military is now slightly more competent in eastern front warfare techniques.

As George Galloway put it "The problem with our Royal Navy is that they are deployed in every sea except our own"

The attack submarines aren't deployed at all right now. Incompetence.

 

[McAhuna]

What the Germans did is not relevant to the comparison save I agree that a sizeable chunk of those within Ukrainian territory welcomed the Russians with open arms.

Those ethnic Ukrainians to the west, not so sure?

As an aside, had the Germans behaved as a benevolent liberating force rather than the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse when they invaded Ukraine, Moldova, Belarus etc. I think that War would have been very different. One for another thread...

To state the obvious, the Russians aren't in those territories.
What's more, the peace deal that Russia and Ukraine previously agreed ensured that Russia would stay out from those territories where they weren't wanted.
The same peace deal that Boris Johnson scuppered on behalf of his paymasters.

 

[Stirlingsays]

While it's true that debate over the wisdom of specific WW2 decisions is better for another thread, I'll make these observations on some of the excellent commentary so far.

I think Britain was too powerful to be a German protectorate. Hitler's attitude towards the British empire is well documented. If you look at how Germany regarded Spain for example, Franco didn't join the war militarily and still ran Spain.

If Germany had beaten Russia, it would have spent a long time both recovering and also just running that land mass, something it would have found very difficult....it was massively over extended...massively. Hitler's health meant that he would have died or been incapacitated within years of the war ending....he knew this and it factored into his mistakes.

Both Stalin and Hitler were psychopaths minded towards war, we just backed the communists instead of the fascists. Now Europe reflects that choice.....Much much more after the silent generation died off or had retired by the 60s.....The Boomers accelerated on steroids and Gen X was wasn't much better.

We are not where we are by accident.