Iran

[kevlee]

You have to ask yourself, what is more important?
Claiming some moral high ground about the evils of war or supporting our ally when they ask for help. An ally without which we have no serviceable nuclear deterrent.
If Britain was under attack, we would be begging the US for help like we did in WW1 and 2. Does NATO suddenly only count when we need America?

We are in this war by association whether we like it or not. Starmer is a self serving prick. He has made us look like mugs simply for his own standing at home. Meanwhile, pro Islamists are out in our capital supporting the enemy.

Even in the virtual reality world / parallel universe that is the politics forum of HOL, your limitless adoration of Trump and everything he says and does is a minority position. Criticising an ill founded war that is causing an entire region to destabilise does not mean that people are communist Islamic fundamentalist supporters!!
The UK is now funding humanitarian aid in Lebanon and there will be refugees- none of who will head to the US. These are the consequences.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

A very binary interpretation of events.

Things rarely fall neatly into two binary choices, a good team and a bad team.
More often than not, there are just bad teams and bad teams.

I would prefer British lives weren't being lost for the Greater Israel project. If an odious turd like Starmer has made the right call for once, albeit for all the wrong reasons, then thank God for that. He's still an odious turd, but at least British troops aren't being sacrificed.

British troops were never going to be sacrificed.

You do have to ask yourself what the point of being in NATO is if you won't commit to assist your allies.
Our military are not conscripts. They sign up knowing that they might be involved in conflict. If they want to be a mechanic, or be a sailor, they should work for the AA or on a cruise ship.

And don't for gawd sake think that Starmer is doing this for any other reason than to keep his job. He is slime.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Even in the virtual reality world / parallel universe that is the politics forum of HOL, your limitless adoration of Trump and everything he says and does is a minority position. Criticising an ill founded war that is causing an entire region to destabilise does not mean that people are communist Islamic fundamentalist supporters!!
The UK is now funding humanitarian aid in Lebanon and there will be refugees- none of who will head to the US. These are the consequences.

Ironic statement.
You will forgive me for dismissing the kind of mentality that has made parts of Britain look like a Caliphate.
The flow of migrants into Britain will not be determined by war. It will be a consequence of our government's reluctance to stop it.

 

[McAhuna]

British troops were never going to be sacrificed.

You do have to ask yourself what the point of being in NATO is if you won't commit to assist your allies.
Our military are not conscripts. They sign up knowing that they might be involved in conflict. If they want to be a mechanic, or be a sailor, they should work for the AA or on a cruise ship.

And don't for gawd sake think that Starmer is doing this for any other reason than to keep his job. He is slime.

NATO is a DEFENSIVE military alliance.

Also, Israel is not a member of NATO. But Turkey and several countries who actively oppose Israel are members of NATO.

You can't just make these things up as you go along, casually redefine who our allies are and what our treaty obligations are.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

NATO is a DEFENSIVE military alliance.

Also, Israel is not a member of NATO. But Turkey and several countries who actively oppose Israel are members of NATO.

You can't just make these things up as you go along, casually redefine who our allies are and what are treaty obligations are.

Irrespective of acronyms, we cannot have allies only when it suits us.
We have a commitment to support them even if we don't like their President. If we don't, then we can't cry when they tell us to sod off next time we need them.

We aren't in a position to dictate.

 

[beak]

India hopeful Iran talks will ease Hormuz route for its ships The usual Indian approach self interest at its very worst, Ukraine war means cheap fuel. Not led by right or wrong just what is to my benefit.​

 

[McAhuna]

Irrespective of acronyms, we cannot have allies only when it suits us.
We have a commitment to support them even if we don't like their President. If we don't, then we can't cry when they tell us to sod off next time we need them.

We aren't in a position to dictate.

We have a NATO commitment to support the US in the event of them being attacked on home soil. Big difference.

Treaties and their actual terms are what actually matters.

We have no obligations to Israel at all.
As for 'loyalty', lets not forget this....
One might be forgiven for thinking you have more 'loyalty' towards the US and Israel then you do towards the UK.

 

[McAhuna]

India hopeful Iran talks will ease Hormuz route for its ships The usual Indian approach self interest at its very worst, Ukraine war means cheap fuel. Not led by right or wrong just what is to my benefit.​

Extra big letters for an extra important post?

India acts in self-interest. Same as every nation on the planet. Who knew.

 

[Stirlingsays]

We are reliant on America for the hardware and upkeep of Trident. No point in us pushing the button if it doesn't work.

Like I said, that was a choice not a requirement.

Our most recent tests showed that it didn't work.....the delivery system being the most complicated anyway.

What cost would there be to become independent of America in the military sense? Is it even possible?

Blimey, this wasn't the country I grew up in. We did the Falklands against the wishes of the US.

Yes, we can be independent to an extent, but it depends upon what the military is going to be used for.

We cannot look at this like we are an equal partner or a big dog in the fight. We just aren't.

Well, no one's suggesting that.

America calls the shots. It's foolish to believe otherwise.

America calls the shots?.....It has a say, but how much depends upon who donates the big bucks for who sits in the White House.

But to answer the intent of your sentence. They are our friends but not to the extent that we have to join in wars....as Wilson showed. They didn't join in with us in the Falklands did they.

Besides it's hardly as if I'm treating the US as an enemy, I'm just saying this war is bad for most of us.

Personally, I'm glad to know that for all its faults we have an ally which, under the current administration, wants to uphold the culture that we seem happy to lose.

No disagreement there.

There are no invasion threats to the UK because of America. Without them, we could be under the boot of Russia or at the mercy of a number of regimes that have far bigger military capability than we do.

We really have to be careful what we wish for.

We are being invaded Hrolf and Russia have nothing to do with it.

Russia wouldn't be invading us anyway, this has been gone over many times. If Russia went to war with us or vice versa it would be missile exchange.....let's not even think about nuclear because that's the end for the west.

The US wouldn't get destroyed for Europe unless it was unavoidable.....like I said, that generation died off in the 60s.

There is no threat from Russia because the war in Ukraine has mostly been agreed with the US on how it ends and with trade economically being part of Russia's rehabilitation.

You're notice it happening slowly mate, the media hysteria will change and then in a few years it'll be like the war never happened.

Except we will be even poorer for having to pay our contribution to keep Ukrain running regardless of the corruption.

 

[Stirlingsays]

We have a NATO commitment to support the US in the event of them being attacked on home soil. Big difference.

Treaties and their actual terms are what actually matters.

We have no obligations to Israel at all.
As for 'loyalty', lets not forget this....
One might be forgiven for thinking you have more 'loyalty' towards the US and Israel then you do towards the UK.

View attachment 3105

No there's no questioning Hrolf's loyalty, he's shown it over many years on the forum.

It's just friendly disagreement on a particular topic, that's healthy and there's nothing wrong with it.....it's not as if any of our opinions move an atom on the topic.

But I agree with your post other than that.

 

[McAhuna]

No there's no questioning Hrolf's loyalty, he's shown it over many years on the forum.

It's just friendly disagreement on a particular topic, that's healthy and there's nothing wrong with it.....it's not as if any of our opinions move an atom on the topic.

But I agree with your post other than that.

I said "One might be forgiven for thinking ..."
I am sure he is loyal to the UK, but there are some very straightforward points here that are increasingly overlooked and I suspect are being manipulated from on high.
The manipulations mean we are in danger of betraying actual allies and acting against our own national interest.

Fact 1: We are not in any military alliances with Israel or Ukraine.
Fact 2: We are in a defensive military alliance with Turkey, Hungary, Slovakia and other countries that have been threatened if not out-right attacked by Ukraine and/or Israel.

 

[Racehorse-80s]

I think we all agree Iran needs regime change , It’s about how you break the incumbent c*nts iron rule over its people .
Trumps army falls short IMO , It’s going to take a multinational ground force organised by NATO to fully achieve Trumps goal .
Trump needs to start grovelling to Europe quickly .

 

[Stirlingsays]

I said "One might be forgiven for thinking ..."
I am sure he is loyal to the UK, but there are some very straightforward points here that are increasingly overlooked and I suspect are being manipulated from on high.
The manipulations mean we are in danger of betraying actual allies and acting against our own national interest.

Fact 1: We are not in any military alliances with Israel or Ukraine.
Fact 2: We are in a defensive military alliance with Turkey, Hungary, Slovakia and other countries that have been threatened if not out-right attacked by Ukraine and/or Israel.

Turkey is a two facing nation and not European (though mixed).....however, given its situation I'd say it mostly makes smart decisions for its own self interest.

Regardless, I agree as it's obvious that Ukraine would love to expand the war to bring in Europe....it's given up on that in terms of the US.

Hungary and Slovakia are right wing governments that Europe's socially liberal leaders consider enemies and they seek to reject the EU's desire to replace their European populations. The right wing in Britain should support them.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I think we all agree Iran needs regime change , It’s about how you break the incumbent c*nts iron rule over its people .
Trumps army falls short IMO , It’s going to take a multinational ground force organised by NATO to fully achieve Trumps goal .
Trump needs to start grovelling to Europe quickly .

Why should a single European die in the middle east? Our Navy should protect shipping in the Strait and protect our bases, that's as far as I think it should go.....it's embarrassing that militarily we can't even do that.

Iran is Israel's problem not ours.

If the US's politicians are prepared to shed its people's blood for the dollars from Wall Street and donors that's for them.

 

[Badger11]

Turkey is a two facing nation and not European (though mixed).....however, given its situation I'd say it mostly makes smart decisions for its own self interest.

Regardless, I agree as it's obvious that Ukraine would love to expand the war to bring in Europe....it's given up on that in terms of the US.

Hungary and Slovakia are right wing governments that Europe's socially liberal leaders consider enemies and they seek to reject the EU's desire to replace their European populations. The right wing in Britain should support them.

Where as Pakistan is just two faced. 😀

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

We have a NATO commitment to support the US in the event of them being attacked on home soil. Big difference.

Treaties and their actual terms are what actually matters.

We have no obligations to Israel at all.
As for 'loyalty', lets not forget this....
One might be forgiven for thinking you have more 'loyalty' towards the US and Israel then you do towards the UK.

View attachment 3105

You want to pontificate about treaties or deal with what is happening in the real world?

Also stop thinking and speaking for other people. You don't know what I think beyond a few short sentences on here, and you don't know me.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

No there's no questioning Hrolf's loyalty, he's shown it over many years on the forum.

It's just friendly disagreement on a particular topic, that's healthy and there's nothing wrong with it.....it's not as if any of our opinions move an atom on the topic.

But I agree with your post other than that.

I love disagreeing with you Stirls. It makes a nice change. 😊

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Like I said, that was a choice not a requirement.

Our most recent tests showed that it didn't work.....the delivery system being the most complicated anyway.



Blimey, this wasn't the country I grew up in. We did the Falklands against the wishes of the US.

Yes, we can be independent to an extent, but it depends upon what the military is going to be used for.



Well, no one's suggesting that.



America calls the shots?.....It has a say, but how much depends upon who donates the big bucks for who sits in the White House.

But to answer the intent of your sentence. They are our friends but not to the extent that we have to join in wars....as Wilson showed. They didn't join in with us in the Falklands did they.

Besides it's hardly as if I'm treating the US as an enemy, I'm just saying this war is bad for most of us.



No disagreement there.



We are being invaded Hrolf and Russia have nothing to do with it.

Russia wouldn't be invading us anyway, this has been gone over many times. If Russia went to war with us or vice versa it would be missile exchange.....let's not even think about nuclear because that's the end for the west.

The US wouldn't get destroyed for Europe unless it was unavoidable.....like I said, that generation died off in the 60s.

There is no threat from Russia because the war in Ukraine has mostly been agreed with the US on how it ends and with trade economically being part of Russia's rehabilitation.

You're notice it happening slowly mate, the media hysteria will change and then in a few years it'll be like the war never happened.

Except we will be even poorer for having to pay our contribution to keep Ukrain running regardless of the corruption.

The Falklands was a necessary show of force, but despite America's public disapproval, Ronnie helped out Maggie with intelligence for sure and maybe other stuff that is still not know about.

As far as a threat to Europe is concerned. I would have said before Ukraine that a conventional war in Europe was a complete non starter. Nukes would have made it implausible. Now I'm wondering if Putin or whoever, would test our resolve in the light of the fact that European leaders are a bunch of gutless lefty wimps in the main. And since we now don't want to help America when the come calling, would they bother to help us out again?
It will be interesting to see what happens next as far as Anglo American relations go. Will new administrations mend the damage? Will America pull troops and weaponry out of Europe?
I think they won't, but can we be sure? Will America pull out of NATO? It's possible.

Sometimes you have to do stuff you don't want to for the bigger picture.

 

[Racehorse-80s]

Why should a single European die in the middle east? Our Navy should protect shipping in the Strait and protect our bases, that's as far as I think it should go.....it's embarrassing that militarily we can't even do that.

Iran is Israel's problem not ours.

If the US's politicians are prepared to shed its people's blood for the dollars from Wall Street and donors that's for them.

I agree with the sentiment and hate that a single European should die in battle in Iran , The alternative is US and Isreal retreat and Bomb the crap out of Iran’s nuclear program every couple of years , Which is likely the best answer , My main point was Trump will struggle to achieve total surrender and regime change without a ground invasion and NATO forces .

 

[Stirlingsays]

Where as Pakistan is just two faced. 😀

Even more so.....responsible for supporting those killing our troops back when.