Main Stand redevelopment thread

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Wow, sounds good, not sure I'm happy with that. Why couldn't the 3 existing multi billionaire's put their money in instead? Shyte or bust?

No one pays for a project like this without a loan.

 

[Painter]

Wow, sounds good, not sure I'm happy with that. Why couldn't the 3 existing multi billionaire's put their money in instead? Shyte or bust?

That's why they are billionaires, they use other peoples money. I read Man Utd are over £1billion in debt, don't think for a minute Glazier's and Radcliffe will being paying anything out of their own pockets

 

[Linford]

Crystal Palacufe 😂

View attachment 2465

I don't think AI is anything to worry about for now

I think it does it on purpose. How would it get all the first part right, all the way to the end, just to randomly be so wrong at the end?

Probably trying to avoid a copyright issue.

 

[Linford]

That's why they are billionaires, they use other peoples money. I read Man Utd are over £1billion in debt, don't think for a minute Glazier's and Radcliffe will being paying anything out of their own pockets

United are not a model to be followed though. It was a huge gamble structuring their takeover in the way that they did, it’s turned a not insignificant portion of their fans off, and it’s likely contributed to their very steady decline under the Glazers. Meanwhile Old Trafford has become a wasteland with foul-water and rats running everywhere, and that’s just on the pitch...

 

[Adrift]

This thread should be renamed "Steve Parish's yearly wind up" thread

Come on Woody, what yarn can we spin them in 1st Feb when nothing's happened?

 

[NMPalace]

No one pays for a project like this without a loan.

Agree, but one of the 3 Americans could have loaned us the money at a lower interest rate. A win win surely.

I know that's not how it works with those people, they make wealth and then obtain loans using that wealth (e.g. the value of shares in companies they own etc) as the guarantee, but it would be nice to see some commitment from our part owners.

 

[crystal-purley]

with about 50,000 supporters we could put in ourselves, but how much would it bring in??

 

[TheBigToePunt]

Agree, but one of the 3 Americans could have loaned us the money at a lower interest rate. A win win surely.

I know that's not how it works with those people, they make wealth and then obtain loans using that wealth (e.g. the value of shares in companies they own etc) as the guarantee, but it would be nice to see some commitment from our part owners.

I've have always asked, as a a genuine question, what is the point of the Americans if they aren't paying for projects like this?

My thinking was always that (firstly) as they cannot put their money into the team in any meaningful way due to FFP, bricks and mortar is the only way they can invest, and (secondly) why else would Parish have brought them to the club if not to fund these projects? After all, he could have asked the bank for a loan to build the stand all by himself, so why sell shares in the club?.

My view was influenced by SP saying in an interview a few years ago that building a training ground, Cat A academy, and redeveloping Selhurst could all be achieved by the club in the long run without external investment, but that he was 'impatient' to get these projects done, and that was why Blitzer and Harris came in. I seem to recall similar things said when Textor came on board. That all suggests SP chose to sell shares to these guys because they would bankroll building work, rather than just so they could help him run the club. I know Textor claimed to have helped out with the costs of the academy.

Thinking about it now though, I might have missed a couple of important points. Maybe the Americans never promised to spend a penny of their own money on Selhurst. Maybe its unreasonable to hope they would.

Firstly, as I understand it, SP (or CPFC) could choose who to sell shares to initially, but who those shares then get sold on to is out of the clubs hands. In other words, SP may have chosen Blitzer, Harris, and then Textor, but not Johnson specifically, as Johnson bought his shares from Textor. Perhaps CPFC has some power of veto and could have blocked that sale, but once it became clear Textor had to go, that was never going to happen. In other words, just because Johnson is worth the thick end of $10bn doesn't mean SP chose him to come on board, or that he did so on the basis Johnson would fund Selhurst's redevelopment.

Previously, SP/CPFC may well have 'chosen' to sell to Blitzer and Harris, and then to Textor, but not necessarily because any of them would pay for the main stand. Perhaps the initial selling of shares was just to raise some funds in the short term. Palace runs at a bit of a loss, and it all adds up. I am aware that Blitzer and Harris gave the club a loan during Covid. Textor, or perhaps the money he paid for his shares, seemed to be behind the flurry of transfers before Vieira arrived. All those players were bought with an eye on their resale value and FFP of course, but perhaps Palace just couldn't have changed gears in the transfer market without external finance? It might be as simple as that, a bit like when the Government or local Council sells off an asset: its not for some long term gain, its just to fight a fire or spend a bit more right now. Maybe none of the Americans were even asked to fund the new stand. Perhaps they said from the outset that they wouldn't. Maybe SP just thinks these guys bring business acumen and expertise. Perhaps they do. I have no idea.

If the Americans paid for the main stand (costs circa £150m+) could we really expect them to write that off as a gift? Why would they? They aren't Jack Walker at Blackburn in the 90's, where the heart rules the head. Even as investors and owners, would the value of their shares increase so much that chucking that much of their own money at the project makes financial sense? Even if the value of their shares would increase as a result of the new stand, would that not happen anyway, even if CPFC took out a loan to pay for the stand? Even if the Americans gave CPFC an interest free loan, how much would they be writing off in interest over the payback period? As others have said, that's not how you become rich to begin with!

If nothing else, at least we can be relatively sure that CPFC is not dependant upon the whims of rich individuals for its long term strategy. If all the Americans got bored tomorrow and became silent partners, the club and SP can carry on as planned.

The involvement of a major bank / financier suggests the project has at least been risk-assessed and found OK. That's got to be a good sign?

 

[Pete53]

Crystal Palace set to commence work on Main Stand project

Crystal Palace chairman Steve Parish has revealed that redevelopment work on the Main Stand at Selhurst Park is set to begin in January. The Premier League club first unveiled plans to redevelop Selhurst Park back in December 2017, but the project has been hit by a series of delays. An updated...

www.thestadiumbusiness.com

If true then it would be good, for us occupiers of the Main Stand, to know how, if at all, this will impact us. Will complementary hard hats in red and blue be issued to one and all on admission?

 

[Norbury Old Git]

If true then it would be good, for us occupiers of the Main Stand, to know how, if at all, this will impact us. Will complementary hard hats in red and blue be issued to one and all on admission?

Blitzer and Harris’ investment was originally for infrastructure and not the team. Somehow they got sucked in to help out cash flow problems during covid but it was Textor who mainly provided the money for player purchasers. Whilst Woody bought Eagle Holdings shares, like most American ‘soccer’ investors, he is essentially in for a risk free investment. However, he and his team have made a number of proposals to speed up the construction of the new stand which is said to save the Club substantial amounts of money without jeopardising the original plan. One of the main ones is to change the structure from concrete to steel.

 

[NMPalace]

I've have always asked, as a a genuine question, what is the point of the Americans if they aren't paying for projects like this?

My thinking was always that (firstly) as they cannot put their money into the team in any meaningful way due to FFP, bricks and mortar is the only way they can invest, and (secondly) why else would Parish have brought them to the club if not to fund these projects? After all, he could have asked the bank for a loan to build the stand all by himself, so why sell shares in the club?.

My view was influenced by SP saying in an interview a few years ago that building a training ground, Cat A academy, and redeveloping Selhurst could all be achieved by the club in the long run without external investment, but that he was 'impatient' to get these projects done, and that was why Blitzer and Harris came in. I seem to recall similar things said when Textor came on board. That all suggests SP chose to sell shares to these guys because they would bankroll building work, rather than just so they could help him run the club. I know Textor claimed to have helped out with the costs of the academy.

Thinking about it now though, I might have missed a couple of important points. Maybe the Americans never promised to spend a penny of their own money on Selhurst. Maybe its unreasonable to hope they would.

Firstly, as I understand it, SP (or CPFC) could choose who to sell shares to initially, but who those shares then get sold on to is out of the clubs hands. In other words, SP may have chosen Blitzer, Harris, and then Textor, but not Johnson specifically, as Johnson bought his shares from Textor. Perhaps CPFC has some power of veto and could have blocked that sale, but once it became clear Textor had to go, that was never going to happen. In other words, just because Johnson is worth the thick end of $10bn doesn't mean SP chose him to come on board, or that he did so on the basis Johnson would fund Selhurst's redevelopment.

Previously, SP/CPFC may well have 'chosen' to sell to Blitzer and Harris, and then to Textor, but not necessarily because any of them would pay for the main stand. Perhaps the initial selling of shares was just to raise some funds in the short term. Palace runs at a bit of a loss, and it all adds up. I am aware that Blitzer and Harris gave the club a loan during Covid. Textor, or perhaps the money he paid for his shares, seemed to be behind the flurry of transfers before Vieira arrived. All those players were bought with an eye on their resale value and FFP of course, but perhaps Palace just couldn't have changed gears in the transfer market without external finance? It might be as simple as that, a bit like when the Government or local Council sells off an asset: its not for some long term gain, its just to fight a fire or spend a bit more right now. Maybe none of the Americans were even asked to fund the new stand. Perhaps they said from the outset that they wouldn't. Maybe SP just thinks these guys bring business acumen and expertise. Perhaps they do. I have no idea.

If the Americans paid for the main stand (costs circa £150m+) could we really expect them to write that off as a gift? Why would they? They aren't Jack Walker at Blackburn in the 90's, where the heart rules the head. Even as investors and owners, would the value of their shares increase so much that chucking that much of their own money at the project makes financial sense? Even if the value of their shares would increase as a result of the new stand, would that not happen anyway, even if CPFC took out a loan to pay for the stand? Even if the Americans gave CPFC an interest free loan, how much would they be writing off in interest over the payback period? As others have said, that's not how you become rich to begin with!

If nothing else, at least we can be relatively sure that CPFC is not dependant upon the whims of rich individuals for its long term strategy. If all the Americans got bored tomorrow and became silent partners, the club and SP can carry on as planned.

The involvement of a major bank / financier suggests the project has at least been risk-assessed and found OK. That's got to be a good sign?

If the Americans paid for the main stand (costs circa £150m+) could we really expect them to write that off as a gift? Why would they? They aren't Jack Walker at Blackburn in the 90's, where the heart rules the head. Even as investors and owners, would the value of their shares increase so much that chucking that much of their own money at the project makes financial sense?

Some good points.

In terms of the Americans investing their own money i think a loan at a few % lower than commercial terms would suit all parties. A 2% saving on £125m over 20 years would 'save' the club c£50m overall.

If they were to put actual money into the club e.g. by buying more shares, i still think they would get a return.

If i bought a house for £500k and spent £100k on an extension i would expect the overall value of the house, once the work was completed, to be worth well in excess of £600k.

So if say all 3 Americans bought an extra £50m of shares to give the club £150m in total their shareholding % would increase and SP's would be reduced.

If the club's overall value was increased as a result of the build they would benefit as both the overall value of the club and their % of ownership had increased.

Neither will happen but both could. On a smaller scale the millionaire owner of Stockport County has funded the club back up from Conf North to Div 1. Whilst he has spent millions the club is probably worth 5 times what he originally paid for it.

 

[rob1861]

If the Americans paid for the main stand (costs circa £150m+) could we really expect them to write that off as a gift? Why would they? They aren't Jack Walker at Blackburn in the 90's, where the heart rules the head. Even as investors and owners, would the value of their shares increase so much that chucking that much of their own money at the project makes financial sense?

Some good points.

In terms of the Americans investing their own money i think a loan at a few % lower than commercial terms would suit all parties. A 2% saving on £125m over 20 years would 'save' the club c£50m overall.

If they were to put actual money into the club e.g. by buying more shares, i still think they would get a return.

If i bought a house for £500k and spent £100k on an extension i would expect the overall value of the house, once the work was completed, to be worth well in excess of £600k.

So if say all 3 Americans bought an extra £50m of shares to give the club £150m in total their shareholding % would increase and SP's would be reduced.

If the club's overall value was increased as a result of the build they would benefit as both the overall value of the club and their % of ownership had increased.

Neither will happen but both could. On a smaller scale the millionaire owner of Stockport County has funded the club back up from Conf North to Div 1. Whilst he has spent millions the club is probably worth 5 times what he originally paid for it.

If I were a successful billionaire (which i'm not) I would be thinking i could either invest the money in a below market rate loan to the club that i have no emotional attachment to

or

I could just invest my own money and make that extra £50m myself whilst letting a financial institution and the organisation I own take the risk on so I don't have to.

Given they are successful billionaires, good at making money (not by accident) I would suggest they would take the latter option

 

[park the bus]

This thread should be renamed "Steve Parish's yearly wind up" thread

Come on Woody, what yarn can we spin them in 1st Feb when nothing's happened?

"Woody, you'll never believe what they found when they were mixing the first cement pour! An Anglo Saxon king's burial chamber, complete with bones, gold, red and blue gemstones! Looks like the build is off for 18 months while the archaeology boffins get digging!"

 

[Painter]

If the Americans paid for the main stand (costs circa £150m+) could we really expect them to write that off as a gift? Why would they? They aren't Jack Walker at Blackburn in the 90's, where the heart rules the head. Even as investors and owners, would the value of their shares increase so much that chucking that much of their own money at the project makes financial sense?

Some good points.

In terms of the Americans investing their own money i think a loan at a few % lower than commercial terms would suit all parties. A 2% saving on £125m over 20 years would 'save' the club c£50m overall.

If they were to put actual money into the club e.g. by buying more shares, i still think they would get a return.

If i bought a house for £500k and spent £100k on an extension i would expect the overall value of the house, once the work was completed, to be worth well in excess of £600k.

So if say all 3 Americans bought an extra £50m of shares to give the club £150m in total their shareholding % would increase and SP's would be reduced.

If the club's overall value was increased as a result of the build they would benefit as both the overall value of the club and their % of ownership had increased.

Neither will happen but both could. On a smaller scale the millionaire owner of Stockport County has funded the club back up from Conf North to Div 1. Whilst he has spent millions the club is probably worth 5 times what he originally paid for it.

I don't think you understand finance, you can't just buy shares out of thin air, they have to belong to someone first. Where is this hidden £150m worth od shares?

 

[TheBigToePunt]

If the Americans paid for the main stand (costs circa £150m+) could we really expect them to write that off as a gift? Why would they? They aren't Jack Walker at Blackburn in the 90's, where the heart rules the head. Even as investors and owners, would the value of their shares increase so much that chucking that much of their own money at the project makes financial sense?

Some good points.

In terms of the Americans investing their own money i think a loan at a few % lower than commercial terms would suit all parties. A 2% saving on £125m over 20 years would 'save' the club c£50m overall.

If they were to put actual money into the club e.g. by buying more shares, i still think they would get a return.

If i bought a house for £500k and spent £100k on an extension i would expect the overall value of the house, once the work was completed, to be worth well in excess of £600k.

So if say all 3 Americans bought an extra £50m of shares to give the club £150m in total their shareholding % would increase and SP's would be reduced.

If the club's overall value was increased as a result of the build they would benefit as both the overall value of the club and their % of ownership had increased.

Neither will happen but both could. On a smaller scale the millionaire owner of Stockport County has funded the club back up from Conf North to Div 1. Whilst he has spent millions the club is probably worth 5 times what he originally paid for it.

Your perspective is pretty much what my line of thought was for some time and, up to a point, still is.

Thing is, the announcement of external funding seems to suggest that none of the Americans are even lending Palace the money for the stand, let alone paying for it as an investment, so they obviously don't see it like you do! Thing is, why not? It seems to make so much sense, but I have only a limited understanding of these things.

The best I can come up with is this: Johnson apparently paid about £190m for 45% of the club, which values it at around £400m. I suppose in that context, finding £150m for the stand is a lot of money. If, for instance, Johnson paid for the stand himself he would need CPFC to increase in value by over £300m as a direct result of a stand that cost only half that, just for the the value of his asset to increase by the same amount he had just spent on it.

I suppose it's not impossible that, once the stand is finished, the value of the club might increase by more than the cost of the stand when you consider increased revenue and earning potential in the long term. But by that much?! And a stand doesn't prevent the risk of relegation one day, then who is going to buy your shares for what you have sunk into the club?

None of these are silly people, I'm sure they have costed out every option. Again though, it does make you wonder what benefit they are to the club if the sums don't allow for large bricks and mortar investments.

 

[Spindle]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1999510344851394702

The people behind the collapse of the Greek economy and the 2008 crisis. What could go wrong