War in Ukraine

[Stirlingsays]

It's obvious that the Russians aren't going to give up what they hold. The only deal will be Russia keeping the Donbas and Ukraine remaining out of NATO.

Ukraine cannot win the war without Western money, and even then we cannot supply the weapons to do it without escalation.

If Putin attacks a NATO country, then we really will be at Def Con 1.

To win the war and push Russia out of Ukraine the US/Nato would have to be involved with troops fighting and dying on the ground.

They could properly do it with under fifty thousand casualties because of their airpower.

However, the nuclear option would probably be used......Just as I think Ukraine would have used it if they could.

It's an existential war for both of them and that's how they see it. We shouldn't be involved and my position is Orban''s position.

Another pointless war that has drained billions away from the people who need it.

 

[McAhuna]

Ukraine and European allies reject key parts of "U.S.-Russian peace plan" following Merz, Macron, and Starmer call — Bloomberg.

I'm suspicious that these extremely unpopular current leaders in Europe are parpared to get our boys killed for Ukraine.....So it can have pride parades and trans rights.....all while they demographically replace the dead Ukrainians with non Europeans.

Rinse and repeat.

Yep, predictable that the usual suspects choose the option that results in more bloodshed of innocents and more profits for the military-industrial complex.

Has anyone seen Putin's speeches translated? He does literally refer to the trans-rights madness.
A significant proportion of Russian people feel they are fighting Satanists on behalf of Christendom. People can make of that what they will.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Yep, predictable that the usual suspects choose the option that results in more bloodshed of innocents and more profits for the military-industrial complex.

Has anyone seen Putin's speeches translated? He does literally refer to the trans-rights madness.
A significant proportion of Russian people feel they are fighting Satanists on behalf of Christendom. People can make of that what they will.

When you consider what the left and social liberals would do to their country demographically and in terms of turning it into a feminist and nihilist's dream......Well, while I don't consider Russia a 'good' country (whatever that means in the modern day) but I do consider their fears valid.

It was allowed to happen to us.

 

[McAhuna]

To win the war and push Russia out of Ukraine the US/Nato would have to be involved with troops fighting and dying on the ground.

They could properly do it with under fifty thousand casualties because of their airpower.

However, the nuclear option would probably be used......Just as I think Ukraine would have used it if they could.

It's an existential war for both of them and that's how they see it. We shouldn't be involved and my position is Orban''s position.

Another pointless war that has drained billions away from the people who need it.

Will the 50,000 casualties comprise the following?

• Arms manufacturers?
• Politicians calling for war?
• Politicians who broke previous agreements on Ukraine?
• EU bureaucrats pushing war?
• People with Ukraine flags in their Facebook profiles?

If not, then I'm out.

Because we all know it will be spotty, naive teenagers from working class towns duped into thinking they will be patriotic heroes fighting for freedom.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Will the 50,000 casualties comprise the following?

• Arms manufacturers?
• Politicians calling for war?
• Politicians who broke previous agreements on Ukraine?
• EU bureaucrats pushing war?
• People with Ukraine flags in their Facebook profiles?

If not, then I'm out.

Because we all know it will be spotty, naive teenagers from working class towns duped into thinking they will be patriotic heroes fighting for freedom.

Your every word was truth brother.

 

[silvertop]

Yep, predictable that the usual suspects choose the option that results in more bloodshed of innocents and more profits for the military-industrial complex.

Has anyone seen Putin's speeches translated? He does literally refer to the trans-rights madness.
A significant proportion of Russian people feel they are fighting Satanists on behalf of Christendom. People can make of that what they will.

They have also repeatedly referred to justification for invasion as neutralizing their "NAZI" neighbour. Corrupt, dysfunctional, maybe... but NAZI?

You have to take what they say with much salt. Their attack on wokery I think many have sympathy with (even though it has nothing whatever to do with this war), but I will not take lessons in cultural rot from a country where spousal abuse is the norm.

 

[silvertop]

Will the 50,000 casualties comprise the following?

• Arms manufacturers?
• Politicians calling for war?
• Politicians who broke previous agreements on Ukraine?
• EU bureaucrats pushing war?
• People with Ukraine flags in their Facebook profiles?

If not, then I'm out.

Because we all know it will be spotty, naive teenagers from working class towns duped into thinking they will be patriotic heroes fighting for freedom.

You were doing so well.

 

[McAhuna]

They have also repeatedly referred to justification for invasion as neutralizing their "NAZI" neighbour. Corrupt, dysfunctional, maybe... but NAZI?

You have to take what they say with much salt. Their attack on wokery I think many have sympathy with (even though it has nothing whatever to do with this war), but I will not take lessons in cultural rot from a country where spousal abuse is the norm.

You should research the Azov Brigade.
...and also the celebration of Stepan Bandera.

The Russians aren't stupid and they are sensitive about this sort of thing for some reason

 

[Stirlingsays]

They have also repeatedly referred to justification for invasion as neutralizing their "NAZI" neighbour. Corrupt, dysfunctional, maybe... but NAZI?

You have to take what they say with much salt. Their attack on wokery I think many have sympathy with (even though it has nothing whatever to do with this war), but I will not take lessons in cultural rot from a country where spousal abuse is the norm.

While I regard the amount of emphasis that they put on neo Nazis as over the top....it's a thing....there is a history of anti communism in Ukraine (I have some sympathy for that)....but also darker stuff that I don't.

Russia aren't wrong about ultra-nationalists pro Nazis in Ukraine.....I think they polled at about seven percent in the last election when Zelensky was voted in.

Neo Nazis in Ukraine have been their best fighters and mainly went into the Azoz regiment, and there is plenty of evidence if you look.....Like the SS, a long time ago, they are considered special forces.

Even left wing articles have written about it....especially in the past before it became fashionable to maintain a narrative for Ukraine.

Opinion | Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't

Not acknowledging this threat means that little is being done to guard against it.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[silvertop]

You should research the Azov Brigade.
...and also the celebration of Stepan Bandera.

The Russians aren't stupid and they are sensitive about this sort of thing for some reason

View attachment 2369

Yeah, misfit nutters, but no threat to Russia.

A mate attended a match in central Europe somewhere and the ultras were very keen on their sieg heils. The neighbouring country did not feel compelled to invade.

 

[silvertop]

While I regard the amount of emphasis that they put on neo Nazis as over the top....it's a thing....there is a history of anti communism in Ukraine (I have some sympathy for that)....but also darker stuff that I don't.

Russia aren't wrong about ultra-nationalists pro Nazis in Ukraine.....I think they polled at about seven percent in the last election when Zelensky was voted in.

Neo Nazis in Ukraine have been their best fighters and mainly went into the Azoz regiment, and there is plenty of evidence if you look.....Like the SS, a long time ago, they are considered special forces.

Even left wing articles have written about it....especially in the past before it became fashionable to maintain a narrative for Ukraine.

Opinion | Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't

Not acknowledging this threat means that little is being done to guard against it.

www.nbcnews.com

Yup, corrupt, significant neo Nazi issue, but what has that to do with Russia?

It is an excuse justifying invasion.

The real justifications are complex but include (ironically) Russian nationalism.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Yeah, misfit nutters, but no threat to Russia.

A mate attended a match in central Europe somewhere and the ultras were very keen on their sieg heils. The neighbouring country did not feel compelled to invade.

Russia are insisting that Ukraine's military size be kept at 600,000 post peace agreement......They will no doubt insist on the Azov regiment being disbanded.

Considering the number of brave warriors Ukraine has lost in that Azov regiment (whatever their politics...and it is mainly neo Nazi) that will be a very hard pill to swallow because of the big deal being made out of it.

Then again, I agree that Russia use this as an excuse and as propaganda for home.....They are a real but minor concern for Russia.

I can't see this peace deal working myself......But then again, it's only going to get worse for Ukraine if it doesn't.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Yup, corrupt, significant neo Nazi issue, but what has that to do with Russia?

It is an excuse justifying invasion.

The real justifications are complex but include (ironically) Russian nationalism.

Yep, ironically Putin's Russia has jailed plenty of nationalists and continues too.

I agree with Mearsheimer on Russia's motivations and it certainly has little to do with neo Nazis.

However they will insist on a post war Ukraine being neutral and having those elements discarded.

I think that's completely unrealistic but there you go.

 

[PalazioVecchio]

To win the war and push Russia out of Ukraine

WHAT ? Half of Ukraine is Russian speaking. Its a bit like NATO trying to kick England out of Scotland. And using a foreign coalition of forces to do so. Nuts.

 

[Stirlingsays]

WHAT ? Half of Ukraine is Russian speaking. Its a bit like NATO trying to kick England out of Scotland. And using a foreign coalition of forces to do so. Nuts.

A significant part was, dying in the west and central parts now certainly. The Russian language was suffering from state attempts to reduce its spread from long before the invasion.

But yeah the realities of the people in East Ukraine is one of the reasons it wouldn't be done.

There has been a deliberate establishment decision (as they was with Covid) to keep the more nuanced truth about East Ukraine from the public and only push a pro war good versus evil narrative.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Reuters: The US has threatened to halt arms supplies and intelligence sharing to Ukraine if it fails to sign a peace plan by November 27.

This would cut significantly Ukraine's ability to reduce Russia logistics and supply and only lead to increased rate of territory loss......The Ukrainian military could legitimately collapse.

Europe would have to start fighting with its own troops to stop that.

It looks like put up or shut up in terms of Europe at the moment.

Are they nuts enough to lose troops fighting this?

 

[McAhuna]

Yeah, misfit nutters, but no threat to Russia.

A mate attended a match in central Europe somewhere and the ultras were very keen on their sieg heils. The neighbouring country did not feel compelled to invade.

Not so much misfit nutters, the celebration of Nazi Bandera is deeply embedded in Ukranian society. He even has a national bank holiday

Ukraine Makes Birthday of Nazi Collaborator a Holiday

 

[McAhuna]

Europe would have to start fighting with its own troops to stop that.

It looks like put up or shut up in terms of Europe at the moment.

Are they nuts enough to lose troops fighting this?

I don't think they are nuts, it's more that they simply don't care. Or even worse - they would be quite happy to see our own armed forces sacrificed out there.

After all, patriots are a problem for them, as they have repeatedly shown here in the UK.
Getting that demographic killed in the Donbass would be a win/win for them.
If people think that sounds extreme and crazy, they perhaps aren't paying enough attention.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

To win the war and push Russia out of Ukraine the US/Nato would have to be involved with troops fighting and dying on the ground.

They could properly do it with under fifty thousand casualties because of their airpower.

However, the nuclear option would probably be used......Just as I think Ukraine would have used it if they could.

It's an existential war for both of them and that's how they see it. We shouldn't be involved and my position is Orban''s position.

Another pointless war that has drained billions away from the people who need it.

Putting NATO troops on to the battlefield is unthinkable.

I hope such talk is just a bluff because it's insane.
The line is drawn. Until it is crossed, we must continue to exercise restraint.

 

[Spindle]

Let's hope you find all the military equipment as exciting in real life.

I do thanks