War in Ukraine

[McAhuna]

The most incredible thing is that there was guidance issued following the ludicrous and disgraceful conviction of the fella who was pissed off at Nottingham East Midlands airport and tweeted that he "wanted to blow it sky high".

Ie, this kind of s*** was meant to calm down

Airports are often the worst places for this sort of madness. They hid behind the guise of universally supported 'counter-terrorism' measures.
But now completely abuse the powers they were entrusted with, such as using armed police to arrest comedy writer Graham Linehan for transphobia.

 

[McAhuna]

I'm a bit perplexed that there isn't more pushback on Starmer's commitment to sending our troops into a post war Ukraine.

Is it just me or isn't this a guarantee of British body bags? We would be sending our lads into an impossible situation similar to trying to keep the peace in Northern Ireland (which there was a point to because it's our own people) or Israel/Palestine post WW2 where they would become targets.

Post peace agreement there will be hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian troops coming back having lost a war into an economy that doesn't have jobs, housing nor post war welfare for them. But it will have a hell of a lot of weapons. It's a powder keg that's quickly going to result into internal strife and we are sending our people into that to attempt to force a peace.

There would be only one way to avoid a civil war and that would be massive....and I'm talking Marshall plan levels of investment into Ukraine to avoid this. People call Trump stupid but this is one of the reasons he's pulled out of paying for Ukraine. Instead those costs would fall on Europe.

It's a hiding to nothing....I've said it many times and it's a feature of this war. It's a policy that gets us zero gain but costs us significantly.....Somewhat a recurring outcome of British governments post 2000.

There should be protests about a military involvement in Ukraine post peace agreement....before we do it....because it's not hard predicting that those protests begin once those body bags start arriving.

Don't send our lads over there to be sitting ducks.

Yeah it's weird, I think people just don't take it seriously.
I suspect that if they actually enacted a draft then you would see large-scale protests that make the poll tax riots look like a teddy bear's picnic.
It also doesn't help that all the Uni-Party stooges in the Commons are in lockstep agreement, so there are no dissenting voices for the scum-legacy media to report on.

 

[Frenchaigle]

Jeez …Trump is thick .
Believing Putin crying about being targeted in some bogus drone attack .
All drones shot down ,no wreckage found …very convenient .
All while Zelensky visits him in Florida ,the timing ..very convenient.
Trump is so dumb he doesn’t even check with his intelligence service first see whether anything was detected .
Scumbag Putin’s usefull idiot .

 

[silvertop]

Sure, but what on earth has whatever Tommy Robinson thinks about it got to do with this war?

As for 'gulag versus liberal democracy'.....it's an out of date comparison. Sure, if you were talking about Stalin....but we are living in an age where we arrest more people for hurty comments than Russia does.

So while I accept sensible up to date criticisms of Russia there's a lot to point to about 'liberal democracy'......Something that isn't 'liberal' and isn't 'democracy' either.

Also, 'liberal democracy' is trans promotion, pride parades, feminism on steroids, high mass immigration from Africa and the middle east, high crime rates, censorship, racism against whites, especially white men on the right.....should I go on?.

Ukraine is getting all that after this war......Yay...Liberal Democracy.....It will probably result in civil war....That country is fecked for the foreseeable future.

So the truth is that gulags and liberal democracy in the modern day isn't the same as the past....Sure Russia isn't by any means a free state and will kill some opponents or jail them if they think they go too far....But while we aren't as bad Tommy Robinson himself and plenty of others have been thrown in prison for wrong think and speak. So I say the difference between those two binary choices is worthy of debate itself...I mean, we have good state relationships with plenty of countries with worst regimes than Russia...Saudi for example.

Yeah, we are better than Russia in some ways but we have significant problems that they don't, but regardless what is that meant to represent?....That we should be preparing for war? What are we fighting for exactly? Pride parades and kneeling for BLM? the right wing being frozen out of working in institutions? It's nuts.

If we were funding Russia I'd be far more bothered about them....As it is, collectively, we fund a corrupt state in Ukraine to the tune of hundreds of billions......and it's all down the drain.

If they had been in Nato a far stronger argument could have been made for this, but instead the State department were in Ukraine trying to pull it away from Russia.....what the feck....has that got to do with us?

My biggest point has always been.....not some liking of Russia or disliking of Ukraine....As far as I'm concerned they are independent countries who can be as fecked up as they like....it's their business.

My main point is that this war has feck all to do with us, yet we have been pushed into being one of Ukraine's biggest supporters and spenders. We should have been providing humanitarian aid and pushing for peace....while behind the scenes asking the Americans why they got to this situation in the first place.

Orban has been right about this war all along and our leaders have screwed it up from the start.

Because now we are forced to take an L and lose tens of billions, which we can't afford on something that really had feck all to do with us.

Harold Wilson was awful but one of the few good things he did was keeping us out of the Vietnam war.....Unfortunately we didn't have anyone sensible enough for Ukraine.

Wilson realised Vietnam would have crippled us; and I suspect there was some pay back for Eisenhower's betrayal on Suez.

On topic I am not convinced on the expansionist madman theory. Establish a buffer in a nation of questionable status and provenance that falls within mythical greater Russia and they will be content. However, it will reward military invasion and muscle over soft diplomacy as a means of achieving outcomes. A slippery slope with other nations watching. And it hands over the breadbasket of Europe and rare earth mines to Russia.

Also, whether you like the current government or not, they are expanding the military. And this country is leading the coalition against Russia. We are fighting a proxy war against major tech heavy beligerants who are still our most likely enemy. Our defence service is learning enormous amounts without loss of life and are fine tuning and strengthening the defence of our country.

It is not just over there and none of our business.

 

[Phil’s Barber]

Jeez …Trump is thick .
Believing Putin crying about being targeted in some bogus drone attack .
All drones shot down ,no wreckage found …very convenient .
All while Zelensky visits him in Florida ,the timing ..very convenient.
Trump is so dumb he doesn’t even check with his intelligence service first see whether anything was detected .
Scumbag Putin’s usefull idiot .

Having negotiated the peace deal between Israel & Hamas, when the peace deal between Russia & Ukraine drops (imminently) he will be pretty much untouchable. His style is brash but extremely effective, as the robust tariff talks and policies have shown. He is not without his faults but the results during his second term in office have been more than impressive. He won’t give two hoots about you calling him thick and dumb but taking that suggestion in isolation is I believe, somewhat questionable given his achievements.

 

[silvertop]

Yeah it's weird, I think people just don't take it seriously.
I suspect that if they actually enacted a draft then you would see large-scale protests that make the poll tax riots look like a teddy bear's picnic.
It also doesn't help that all the Uni-Party stooges in the Commons are in lockstep agreement, so there are no dissenting voices for the scum-legacy media to report on.

Id be amazed if the military put up with conscription unless we were under direct risk.

Germany has had a system for years of national service where the military is one option. You volunteer for it. After 6 months those who want regular military and have been assessed as suitable are then referred for full selection.

There may still be protests but not of the scale of a draft.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Wilson realised Vietnam would have crippled us; and I suspect there was some pay back for Eisenhower's betrayal on Suez.

On topic I am not convinced on the expansionist madman theory. Establish a buffer in a nation of questionable status and provenance that falls within mythical greater Russia and they will be content. However, it will reward military invasion and muscle over soft diplomacy as a means of achieving outcomes. A slippery slope with other nations watching. And it hands over the breadbasket of Europe and rare earth mines to Russia.

Also, whether you like the current government or not, they are expanding the military. And this country is leading the coalition against Russia. We are fighting a proxy war against major tech heavy beligerants who are still our most likely enemy. Our defence service is learning enormous amounts without loss of life and are fine tuning and strengthening the defence of our country.

It is not just over there and none of our business.

I agree with the need to restore Britain's military status.....Like most conservatives I never agreed with the uniparty's effective destruction of our military.

However, the rather harsh reality is that all this talk of 5 percent of GDP is nonsense. Anyone who knows about our economic position knows that it's pie in the sky.

All the people who put us into this position have various gongs and pensions and I'll be frank and say they all should be stripped. The British system is an embarrassment to its past and fails people upwards and rewards compliance rather than merit.

In relation to the Ukraine war, I would disagree with your last line. It's been a fool's war and the negative outcomes we now have were predicted and stated even at the start.

We needed a Wilson in 2022.

 

[silvertop]

I agree with the need to restore Britain's military status.....Like most conservatives I never agreed with the uniparty's effective destruction of our military.

However, the rather harsh reality is that all this talk of 5 percent of GDP is nonsense. Anyone who knows about our economic position knows that it's pie in the sky.

All the people who put us into this position have various gongs and pensions and I'll be frank and say they all should be stripped. The British system is an embarrassment to its past and fails people upwards and rewards compliance rather than merit.

In relation to the Ukraine war, I would disagree with your last line. It's been a fool's war and the negative outcomes we now have were predicted and stated even at the start.

We needed a Wilson in 2022.

We may never know who's right on that in terms of empirical evidence given the need for time to see any outcomes and the fact that in this country they are largely secret. However it is impossible for our broad defense system not to benefit from testing kit and tactics against our most likely enemy. And short of nuking us (which they won't) Russia can do feck all about it.

5% is fantasy. On that we agree.

 

[McAhuna]

Id be amazed if the military put up with conscription unless we were under direct risk.

Germany has had a system for years of national service where the military is one option. You volunteer for it. After 6 months those who want regular military and have been assessed as suitable are then referred for full selection.

There may still be protests but not of the scale of a draft.

Hopefully, you are right. It was being seriously discussed in all the legacy media though.

 

[Badger11]

So Starmer is willing to send a British peacekeeping force to Ukraine along with France.

Oh good, and the rest of the EU (sitting on their hands no doubt). And whose paying for this? Will the EU at least shell out to compensate us, no chance.

Really not a good idea.

 

[Willo]

So Starmer is willing to send a British peacekeeping force to Ukraine along with France.

Oh good, and the rest of the EU (sitting on their hands no doubt). And whose paying for this? Will the EU at least shell out to compensate us, no chance.

Really not a good idea.

The two nations cannot prevent rubber dingies from crossing the channel yet they pontificate about keeping the peace in what could be a hostile environment !!!!
Total 'Rhubarb' by the coalition of the pointless.

 

[McAhuna]

So Starmer is willing to send a British peacekeeping force to Ukraine along with France.

Oh good, and the rest of the EU (sitting on their hands no doubt). And whose paying for this? Will the EU at least shell out to compensate us, no chance.

Really not a good idea.

These 'peacekeepers' will of course be fully armed military launching drones and missiles.

Truly "War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength"

 

[McAhuna]

 

[Stirlingsays]

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I don't actually think Russia are now....They have their eye on three or four cities and Trump would have to have quite the incentives to avoid that.

But it's certainly true that Starmer and Macron/Merz aren't ready for peace......They are desperate to find some way of not losing face for beyond stupid decisions.

 

[McAhuna]

I don't actually think Russia are now....They have their eye on three or four cities and Trump would have to have quite the incentives to avoid that.

But it's certainly true that Starmer and Macron/Merz aren't ready for peace......They are desperate to find some way of not losing face for beyond stupid decisions.

Which 3 or 4?
Smaller ones in Luhansk and Donbass? Or Odessa?

 

[Stirlingsays]

Which 3 or 4?
Smaller ones in? Or Odessa?

My analysis is that they want to put pressure on Zaporizhzhia, Kharkiv and Kherson regions, but not actually fully take them.....Which would take probably another year or more.

But they are certainly looking to take the rest of Luhansk and Donbass and that's very realistic.

That's the cities of Lyman and Kramatorsk, Kostiantynivka and Kupyansk, the last one being in the Kharkiv region but being on the river so that makes sense to take from their perspective.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Taking Odessa would mean Ukraine wouldn't have a seaport......Economically unthinkable.

I don't think it's one the cards in a negotiated settlement.....but getting to the stage where they threaten it makes sense from their perspective.

 

[ASCPFC]

Taking Odessa would mean Ukraine wouldn't have a seaport......Economically unthinkable.

I don't think it's one the cards in a negotiated settlement.....but getting to the stage where they threaten it makes sense from their perspective.

I was considering this and wondered if Trump is going to tell us a Russian Naval Base can be there. And how that will go down with everyone. We both know Russia remembers Sebastopol and the Crimea well enough, plus have always wanted that base. How much time and money has been spent thwarting that I don't know. Some anyway. I would think Russia will be insisting on a presence there. No doubt, they will start with claiming it all as that is how these things go. It's going to be touchy for a few people. Notice the interest of the Mediterranean countries for instance. Plus, it would be a perhaps legitimate concern for Britain.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I was considering this and wondered if Trump is going to tell us a Russian Naval Base can be there. And how that will go down with everyone. We both know Russia remembers Sebastopol and the Crimea well enough, plus have always wanted that base. How much time and money has been spent thwarting that I don't know. Some anyway. I would think Russia will be insisting on a presence there. No doubt, they will start with claiming it all as that is how these things go. It's going to be touchy for a few people. Notice the interest of the Mediterranean countries for instance. Plus, it would be a perhaps legitimate concern for Britain.

Yes, personally I think denying Ukraine a seaport goes too far.

 

[McAhuna]

Off-topic a bit, but having a seaport doesn't seem to have any bearing on economic viability.

Switzerland, Austria, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Serbia all seem to do just fine. Some of those are actually wealthier than their neighbours who have ports.

Having said said, Odessa is arguably more valuable to Ukraine than it would be to Russia. Russia already has Sevastopol. But I can see Russia maybe incentivised to capture as much as possible to improve its negotiating position.