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Jesse Derry chose to leave us to go to Chelsea. Reggie Watson, Ben Watson's highly rated 16yo son, did the same.

And now this lad, a 16yo England youth international, has chosen to go to Arsenal.

Given how good our academy is supposed to be why are we struggling to keep hold of these players?

Is it just money? Surely we're an easier pathway to the first team than Arsenal and Chelsea?

 
Jesse Derry chose to leave us to go to Chelsea. Reggie Watson, Ben Watson's highly rated 16yo son, did the same.

And now this lad, a 16yo England youth international, has chosen to go to Arsenal.

Given how good our academy is supposed to be why are we struggling to keep hold of these players?

Is it just money? Surely we're an easier pathway to the first team than Arsenal and Chelsea?


You can bet your bottom dollar.
 
Its not just us, arsenal lose players to city and utd, Liverpool pinch Chelsea academy lads, liverpool have had a few from City.
 
Apart from money, I think it's all about prestige.

Some of these guys may not make it (we have seen a number of highly rated youngsters get released at Palace), so when clubs like Arsenal and Chelsea come calling they are going to jump ship.

Even if they don't make it, they can still say they played for Arsenal, Chelsea etc (they may never get another opportunity).

Of course, if they do make it, they are in a great position at a big club already.

Not sure if there is much we can do, especially as big clubs like Arsenal and Chelsea are so close, they don't even need to move.
 
Apart from money, I think it's all about prestige.

Some of these guys may not make it (we have seen a number of highly rated youngsters get released at Palace), so when clubs like Arsenal and Chelsea come calling they are going to jump ship.

Even if they don't make it, they can still say they played for Arsenal, Chelsea etc (they may never get another opportunity).

Of course, if they do make it, they are in a great position at a big club already.

Not sure if there is much we can do, especially as big clubs like Arsenal and Chelsea are so close, they don't even need to move.
The only way around it is fully blooding them at a young age. But they do have to be up to scratch for that.
 
The only way around it is fully blooding them at a young age. But they do have to be up to scratch for that.
Meaning what exactly? We've seen many experienced players from other top European Leagues either struggle to settle at all in the PL or take months or even a whole year to do so. What leeway are you prepared to give to our Academy players? They'll need time to adjust too. Having said that, I'd throw Drakes-Thomas into the deep end and give him a good amount of game time this season in the cups and off the bench in the league. He's shown in pre-season that he's up for it and isn't afraid to play and try and beat his man.
 
Youth football at professional clubs hasn't really changed over the years in the key respects. It's a ruthless thing for a child to be involved in, demanding on normal families. The vast majority will never even be professional footballers at the end, even those who get a few first team games as teenagers. The best 13 year old may well not be good enough at 15, and a kid just clinging on at 15 might be a star at 17. Mostly, though, success depends on a young player hitting a bit of form in training or on loan at the same time as the first team needs someone in that position, usually due to injury etc.

Hence, AWB gets his chance when Ward gets injured and we don't have another right back, whereas Rak-Sakhi has the misfortune to be at the club at the same time as Olise, and even when Olise picked up a serious injury, JRS picked one up too.

In any profession a talented, hard working youngster needs there to be a job vacancy, and despite all the home grown quotas and suchlike, football doesn't naturally provide those job vacancies.

A big part of academy football seems to be about trying to iron out the inherent randomness of the above. I don't see that as possible. You can give players all the best facilities and coaching but, firstly, they seem over coached if anything sometimes and, secondly, everyone else has got those things too so it offers no advantage. Even the financial bullying involved in having half the lower domestic and lesser foreign leagues awash with so many loaned out youth graduates that you need a special manager to keep track of them hasn't really increased the youth production success rate overall. It is what it is, whatever you spend.

But clubs do spend staggering amounts on academies, as the premier league requires it. Making it pay for itself has taken on its own, often unseemly, character and practice over the last twenty years. A kid you've got no obvious use for becomes a commodity who might pay for the upkeep. That is a big change compared to the old youth team days. This leads to aggressive poaching at the upper age groups in the hope, not so much of getting a player for your team as getting a valuable assets on your books. That leads to silly offers to kids and their families. That leads to a merry go round of teenage prospects amongst the big clubs. Very few kids that come into a first team from an academy are produced by that club or are from that area. Ngumoha was at Chelsea for for years before moving to Liverpool, just like Sterling was at QPR. Most of them move around.

Hence this kid and others leaving or joining Palace. This idea that a youth player is one of our own is usually nonsense. It's a meat market.
 
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Opportunity also relies on the team being in a safe position, not challenging for the top or avoiding relegation. It’s easier for the Chelseas, ManUs, Liverpools of this world to throw them in at the start of the season with little at stake.

There are also gives opportunities if the team has a small squad and injuries occur, is the manger going to play senior players out of position eg Danny Butterfield against Wolves, Chris Coleman against Chelsea or bring in a youngster? Is the manager going to take that risk? Glasner played four academy players against Kups but was this because they deserved a try, injuries left gaps in the squad or because he was trying make a point to the Directors in the stand? Or of course all three!

It really is quite complicated for clubs like Palace. However, what might deter bigger clubs from grabbing all the best youngsters is to ban loans out for under 18s, the first two years of their contract for any player signed under 19 and one year under 20. No loans to be made to teams in a multi-club ownership model during this time. It may not lead to a young impressionable player wanting to join a big club but it may reduce the demand of teams like Chelsea who also have to deal with their own academies.

Pierre Sage has a record for using young players. Mixing the squads during the Como trip and not just playing the best players gives him the opportunity to really have a good look at what is available outside the first team. Hopefully this will prove worthwhile in the coming months.
 
Meaning what exactly? We've seen many experienced players from other top European Leagues either struggle to settle at all in the PL or take months or even a whole year to do so. What leeway are you prepared to give to our Academy players? They'll need time to adjust too. Having said that, I'd throw Drakes-Thomas into the deep end and give him a good amount of game time this season in the cups and off the bench in the league. He's shown in pre-season that he's up for it and isn't afraid to play and try and beat his man.
Meaning don't just throw anyone in just for the sake of it, or just to keep them from moving. It's up to Pierre and to an extent the academy staff to work that one out, some are ready for it and will grow by it, others who aren't could be damaged by it. Absolutely with you on Joél, he is ready and would be an asset.

I'm on the side of playing youth players. As much as possible. More than we have done. It's a small caveat not to go crazy in that direction either though.
 
Meaning don't just throw anyone in just for the sake of it, or just to keep them from moving. It's up to Pierre and to an extent the academy staff to work that one out, some are ready for it and will grow by it, others who aren't could be damaged by it. Absolutely with you on Joél, he is ready and would be an asset.

I'm on the side of playing youth players. As much as possible. More than we have done. It's a small caveat not to go crazy in that direction either though.
Thanks for the clarification. I agree.
 
i wonder why Prem teams even bother to have an academy. What percentage of regular starters came up through the same club's academy ? 1% of starters ? maybe 5% ?

i reckon the place to have an academy is the Championship & League One etc. The Prem is such a high standard and the failure-rate for hopefuls is so high. Even for really good players. Look at how Arsenal sacked the youthful Eze. His was the fairytale with the happy ending.....most Academy players end up working for Deliveroo.
 
i wonder why Prem teams even bother to have an academy. What percentage of regular starters came up through the same club's academy ? 1% of starters ? maybe 5% ?

i reckon the place to have an academy is the Championship & League One etc. The Prem is such a high standard and the failure-rate for hopefuls is so high. Even for really good players. Look at how Arsenal sacked the youthful Eze. His was the fairytale with the happy ending.....most Academy players end up working for Deliveroo.
You make valid points.
Furthermore when youngsters of high potential emerge like Derry and Watson they are poached by the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal.
We are left with the youngsters they don't want could seem to be a reasonable view.
I suppose we will get a return on the likes of JRS, Imray and Ozoh which helps finance the academy, but at the current rate a Zaha or an AWB only comes through every few years.
Furthermore,these days the suspicion would be that a Zaha would have been poached at an early age rather than come through the ranks to our first team.
 
i wonder why Prem teams even bother to have an academy. What percentage of regular starters came up through the same club's academy ? 1% of starters ? maybe 5% ?

i reckon the place to have an academy is the Championship & League One etc. The Prem is such a high standard and the failure-rate for hopefuls is so high. Even for really good players. Look at how Arsenal sacked the youthful Eze. His was the fairytale with the happy ending.....most Academy players end up working for Deliveroo.
Because they no longer have a choice. It is a requirement of being in the PL. Brentford had to hastily resurrect one when the new PL rule came into force for the start of 24/25 season. They'd closed theirs a few years earlier resulting in Mitchell moving to us (every cloud...).
 
Because they no longer have a choice. It is a requirement of being in the PL. Brentford had to hastily resurrect one when the new PL rule came into force for the start of 24/25 season. They'd closed theirs a few years earlier resulting in Mitchell moving to us (every cloud...).
And they were not appreciably worse off as a football club for not having an academy. They had a development team populated by a mix of trialists, non league possibles, and big club youth products who spurs, Chelsea, arsenal etc had spent a fortune 'developing' only to cast aside, and who Brentford could snap up for free. They weren't allowed to enter an official league but would play friendlies fairly often against teams from around Europe.

I wonder how many clubs would prefer that?
 
Most clubs these days would fail to meet FFP if they didn't have an academy.
The big ones might well do, they sell 'brand name' players for large fees. I'm not sure the rest of the clubs rely on it for FFP in the same way. There aren't too many AWB deals in a lifetime.
 

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