Sage in or out

[RedandBlueSash]

I remember at the start of the 24/25 season when we were in the top 4 after 15 games that when i ran through the team sheet that there were very of the team that you sould say were not in the top 3 for their position in the Premier League. Henderson, Mitchell, Guehi, LaCroix, Richards and Munoz at the back. Wharton and Kamada in central midfield, Sarr Mateta and Pino up front.
2 season's on and we are now in the bottom 3 after a similar ( albeit lesser amount of games )
Comparing the 2 starts the first thing that jumps out is 2 years ago we had a very settled starting 11 and no European competition to contend with. This meant we were able to train the whole week and not had to play and travel twice a week. We were also able to benefit from a settle team which would have led to a good understand of what everyone is doing both defensively and attacking wise.
My third observation is that in the previous 2 season's the squad has been stretched due to our succeses and the playing group as a whole came into this season fatigue due to the amount of games ( both with us and internationally ) the players have played. This is now a contributing factor in terms of player availability and the ability to play similar starting line up's in games.
I am accepting that our current form this season will get us relegated but i don't think replacing the manager is going to suddenly transform us into a mid table team due to these circumstances. We need Mateta and Sarr back playing regular ( which should happen ) This will free up passing options in Midfield for Wharton and his game will come on. We also need another decent centre back who can play out form the back. This will let Sage play his wing backs further up the field a proceed with his pressing game.
Systems are part of football but it is usually the quality of players you have at your disposal that make the diffference.
Most of the potential replacements suggested are not experienced in playing in Europe so will have there work cut to really make a difference. Man U and Sunderland are suffering from similar issues.

Nice to see someone here who isn't either 'doom and gloom' or certain that it is all the manager's fault. I think the defence will continue to settle in and Mateta and Sarr will start to have a positive effect on the team. We badly need experienced CBs like Tomiyasu back and Disasi to settle in plus an experienced CB in January. These factors will all improve us.

But our sudden and inexplicable inability to avoid critical individual errors in defence and catastrophic tackles is not a product of our system. I've yet to hear a compelling explanation as to why a change of manager is going to stop the near-idiocy of some of our players. We have to cut out the basic errors and stop lunging in stupidly. Bit of bloody luck would help too.

 

[PatrickA]

Nice to see someone here who isn't either 'doom and gloom' or certain that it is all the manager's fault. I think the defence will continue to settle in and Mateta and Sarr will start to have a positive effect on the team. We badly need experienced CBs like Tomiyasu back and Disasi to settle in plus an experienced CB in January. These factors will all improve us.

But our sudden and inexplicable inability to avoid critical individual errors in defence and catastrophic tackles is not a product of our system. I've yet to hear a compelling explanation as to why a change of manager is going to stop the near-idiocy of some of our players. We have to cut out the basic errors and stop lunging in stupidly. Bit of bloody luck would help too.

With regard to your second paragraph, we have two examples in our own recent history of a new manager taking over the same group of players and putting in an organised structure which enabled us to move forward.
One was Pulis for Holloway, the other was Hodgson for Pardew.
In both cases the priority was to stop leaking goals and give us a platform where we could at least get a foothold in a game , perhaps achieve a clean sheet and maybe even get a 1-0.
From what I’ve seen if Sage, I do not believe he either has the will or has the inclination to take the necessary steps to stop leaking goals.
The evidence has been there all season, and it’s not just down to individual mistakes by players.

 

[Willo]

With regard to your second paragraph, we have two examples in our own recent history of a new manager taking over the same group of players and putting in an organised structure which enabled us to move forward.
One was Pulis for Holloway, the other was Hodgson for Pardew.
In both cases the priority was to stop leaking goals and give us a platform where we could at least get a foothold in a game , perhaps achieve a clean sheet and maybe even get a 1-0.
From what I’ve seen if Sage, I do not believe he either has the will or has the inclination to take the necessary steps to stop leaking goals.
The evidence has been there all season, and it’s not just down to individual mistakes by players.

Pardew was succeeded by Allardyce.
'Big Sam' took up the reins in December after 17 PL games with us languishing in 17th place.
He did inherit the likes of Dann, Tomkins,Kelly,Delaney,Zaha,Townsend, Cabaye,Ward etc etc.
In the January 'Window' he signed Van Aanholt, Schlupp, Sakho, and Milivojevic. We ended the season in 14th place.

 

[PatrickA]

Pardew was succeeded by Allardyce.
'Big Sam' took up the reins in December after 17 PL games with us languishing in 17th place.In the January 'Window' he signed Van Aanholt, Schlupp, Sakho, and Milivojevic. We ended the season in 14th place.

My mistake , I meant that Hodgson took over from De Boer.
That system of DeBoer with Riedewald in a back 3 never looked suitable for the rigours of the Premier League and the players looked as uncomfortable with the system as they do now, even if the current crop like Sage more than the erstwhile players liked DeBoer.

 

[park the bus]

With regard to your second paragraph, we have two examples in our own recent history of a new manager taking over the same group of players and putting in an organised structure which enabled us to move forward.
One was Pulis for Holloway, the other was Hodgson for Pardew.
In both cases the priority was to stop leaking goals and give us a platform where we could at least get a foothold in a game , perhaps achieve a clean sheet and maybe even get a 1-0.
From what I’ve seen if Sage, I do not believe he either has the will or has the inclination to take the necessary steps to stop leaking goals.
The evidence has been there all season, and it’s not just down to individual mistakes by players.

Yes. Getting down to the very basics, the way Sage sets up his team guarantees that the opposition will score. Anyone doubting this need only look at the goals for and goals against column. Crucially Sage shows no indication of amending his way of play. In which case expect more of the same.

 

[Willo]

My mistake , I meant that Hodgson took over from De Boer.
That system of DeBoer with Riedewald in a back 3 never looked suitable for the rigours of the Premier League and the players looked as uncomfortable with the system as they do now, even if the current crop like Sage more than the erstwhile players liked DeBoer.

Fear NOT, I am riddled with mistakes ! A clog-hoofed donkey.
FDB bought Riedewald to play in a back 3.
FDB lasted 4 PL games - managers do not get relieved of their duties on the basis of results after such a short spell of matches.

 

[Eagle One]

I personally don't think we have too bad a squad, which I may be in the minority on. I think we are a team in transition and Sage's attacking style means we are way too open at the back. I like Sage, I really do but I don't see it changing. A new manager and different tactics could get more out of this group of players albeit it will be a tougher watch.

A heavy loss against Liverpool and I think Sage will be gone given it allows a bit of time for a new incumbent to work with the bulk of players who will not be on international duties.

 

[Willo]

Yes. Getting down to the very basics, the way Sage sets up his team guarantees that the opposition will score. Anyone doubting this need only look at the goals for and goals against column. Crucially Sage shows no indication of amending his way of play. In which expect more of the same.

When a team is 'Leaking' goals the priority of a manager is to address this vulnerability.
In Pardew's last 10 PL games we conceded 24 goals. He was succeeded by Allardyce, and in his first 10 PL games we conceded 14 goals. Allardyce joined in December and not long after was able to add 4 players to his squad when the 'Window' opened. Our club cannot sign players until January which is about 2 months away.

 

[doombear]

When a team is 'Leaking' goals the priority of a manager is to address this vulnerability.
In Pardew's last 10 PL games we conceded 24 goals. He was succeeded by Allardyce, and in his first 10 PL games we conceded 14 goals. Allardyce joined in December and not long after was able to add 4 players to his squad when the 'Window' opened. Our club cannot sign players until January which is about 2 months away.

Are you suggesting Sage might not be replaced until December?

 

[Teddy Eagle]

The spine of the team begins and ends with Henderson.

 

[Willo]

Are you suggesting Sage might not be replaced until December?

I was merely stating that we cannot add to our squad for about 2 months so the manager will have to make do with those currently at the club for at least that period.

 

[MarkA333]

We have a serious problem, a below average squad, a manager that can’t stop shipping goals and a board that didn’t provide the squad that was necessary despite receiving 200 million for sold players. It’s so obvious this is how teams decline and get demoted. Look at Wolves and Southampton.

 

[Lanzo-Ad]

We have a serious problem, a below average squad, a manager that can’t stop shipping goals and a board that didn’t provide the squad that was necessary despite receiving 200 million for sold players. It’s so obvious this is how teams decline and get demoted. Look at Wolves and Southampton.

The only thing that can be addressed in your opinion is obviously the manager

 

[doombear]

We have a serious problem, a below average squad, a manager that can’t stop shipping goals and a board that didn’t provide the squad that was necessary despite receiving 200 million for sold players. It’s so obvious this is how teams decline and get demoted. Look at Wolves and Southampton.

I'd like to see exactly where you get 200m from.

 

[MarkA333]

Olise 50
Eze 65
Guehi 20
La Croix 52
Munoz 20
Not including what we got for sales of younger players. Surprised you have to ask this question.

 

[CrazyBadger]

Nice to see someone here who isn't either 'doom and gloom' or certain that it is all the manager's fault. I think the defence will continue to settle in and Mateta and Sarr will start to have a positive effect on the team. We badly need experienced CBs like Tomiyasu back and Disasi to settle in plus an experienced CB in January. These factors will all improve us.

But our sudden and inexplicable inability to avoid critical individual errors in defence and catastrophic tackles is not a product of our system. I've yet to hear a compelling explanation as to why a change of manager is going to stop the near-idiocy of some of our players. We have to cut out the basic errors and stop lunging in stupidly. Bit of bloody luck would help too.

How about:
Clearer, simpler instructions so not to introduce doubt into their minds.
Playing a formation they are used to and understand better
Implementing more stringent training procedures and enforcing rules so that the team supports each other to allow (for example) easier passing options.
Encouraging/Discouraging good/bad decisions so Disasi doesn't constantly charge out of position.

It's all about making options simpler. If a Player is bad at something, coach him to do the things he is good at.

 

[est1905]

We have a serious problem, a below average squad, a manager that can’t stop shipping goals and a board that didn’t provide the squad that was necessary despite receiving 200 million for sold players. It’s so obvious this is how teams decline and get demoted. Look at Wolves and Southampton.

More rubbish. £200m?

 

[MarkA333]

More rubbish. £200m?

You can’t add up?

 

[est1905]

Olise 50
Eze 65
Guehi 20
La Croix 52
Munoz 20
Not including what we got for sales of younger players. Surprised you have to ask this question.

Olise was sold at the very beginning of Glasner's reign. A few years ago. Maybe you should add Victor Moses being sold on the cheap too? It has about as much relevance. Eze we all knew was going, same with Guehi. Munoz was and remains excellent business. Forest fans think they've been sold a crock. I wouldn't go that far but we definitely sold at the right time for better money than we could have hoped for.

 

[MarkA333]

So, can you add up?