Sage in or out

Sage in or out

  • In

    Votes: 83 44.4%
  • Out

    Votes: 67 35.8%
  • Sit on the fence

    Votes: 37 19.8%

  • Total voters
    187
See what happens after tonight and Sunday, loose both hes out. Bring in xyz and go with a formation 4-3-3

khalaili/Mingueza
Disasi/Richards
Canvot/Tomiyasu
Mitchell//Chilwell

Wharton/Timber
Hughes/Lerma
Kamada/Doucoure

Sarr/Nketiah
Strand-Larson/Mateta
Pino/McNeil
 
I have had discussions on this issue outside of HOL.
The overall message has been that whilst the squad has expanded, there is a dearth of quality and the overall strength has been called into question.
It does appear that whilst initially Sage was the sole target of vilification, the dial has moved to a degree in terms of the summer acquisitions. Consideration has also been given to the fact that both Mateta and Sarr have, until recently, been unavailable and Henderson has hardly donned the gloves.
I think old chap, that 40m doesn't seem to buy much these days, and we cant afford quality and quantity, i said in the summer break that the 4 Loans would be crucial, i don't think Guessand, Disasi, Abanor and Osorio fit the requirements at all.
 
I think old chap, that 40m doesn't seem to buy much these days, and we cant afford quality and quantity, i said in the summer break that the 4 Loans would be crucial, i don't think Guessand, Disasi, Abanor and Osorio fit the requirements at all.
Think your right , only Osorio out of the 3 is a possible as he is getting game time in Colombia national team . So he must have something . But we haven't seen enough of him playing yet
 
Sorry but I’m not having this ‘bad transfer window’ narrative. The whole of last season we whined about depth - Parish more than delivered. We added solid premiership performers like McNeill, Disasi, Tomiyasu, Chillwell and to a degree, Guessand. We added experienced and well regarded internationals such as Mingueza and Timber, then we added exciting new prospects such as Osario, Honest, Khalali and Gozo. We also kept Wharton, Mateta and Sarr.

There was nothing to suggest Disasi was going to be as average as he’s been so far.

For me, it was a decent window. The problem is the lack of cohesion and clarity of style right now and possibly motivation - the players are good enough.

My opinion only.
I think you have to put all this in the context of who left, and who was left behind against their wishes.

We lost La Croix and Munoz, not only two excellent players, but two seasoned pros and part of the core of the team. Guehi went six months before that. Eze before that.

To say we kept Mateta is one way of putting it. I'd be amazed if that was by choice given what we saw when Guehi's contract was running down. I imagine we just couldn't sell him. Hopefully JPM will play and perform, but I imagine the plan was for him not to be here.

In other words, a big chunk of the core of the FA Cup winning side has gone or all-but gone in a year. In that context, we needed hardened, proven players to replace them. McNeill has obviously been of interest for a while, and could be OK (if Sage ever picks him). He at least knows the league. Disasi I agreed with at the time, and still hope he will do OK in a more coherent defensive set up. Tomiyasu seems really good but we all knew he was a massive gamble (so far, one we are losing). Chilwell is like Tomiyasu - he has quality but there is a reason we got him for free and nobody else wanted him. He did very little when he was here last time, and has done very little so far this time. Guessand was, to my mind, shite last season and I have no idea why we got him back.

When you add it all up, the outgoings and the incomings just don't tally at all. Of course, we were never going to replace some of those players like-for-like, but surely that just made it all the more obvious that we were going to have a much weaker team?

That's the thing for me. I have no time at all for this idea of squad depth. This is Palace. We can barely afford a first team good enough for the league, surely spreading our money even further to put together a deeper squad was only ever going to dilute the quality to the point of failure?

The classic example is selling Munoz, an established, battle-hardened player we could rely on to bring in Khalili and Mingueza. On paper we have two players now for one position. Great. Except neither is obviously good enough. What looked good on a director of football spreadsheet has undermined the actual team on the grass.

What is more, by bringing in too many average players at the same time we have blocked many of them from establishing themselves. Gozo, Osario, McNeill, and even Guessand must look at the team and think 'I'm surely as good as some of these, yet here I am, kicking my heels'. They have all barely seen the light of day. At least half of them must be starting to regret joining us. How is that good value for money?

Yet at the other extreme we have inexperienced kids like Khalili playing every week and getting murdered. What should have happened is that we had established, senior players (unspectacular, but solid), supported by a few promising players. Then the likes of Gozo, Osario, Honest, Khalili, and especially Canvot, would be playing once in every four games or so, dipping their toes in, getting their fingers burnt here and there, coming back out to reflect and regroup, before going back in.

There is no hierarchy of seniority now to the team and squad. Just a large pool of average, inexperienced players floundering in the absence of structure.

For me, it was a crap window because of the flawed mindset that underpinned it: Squad depth and development potential ahead of team quality. I imagine we will sack Sage sooner or later, and if his replacement is at all experienced then he will start by trimming the squad, building the team around a core of experience, and drip feeding the newer, younger players in, bit at a time, as has worked pretty well for 150 years!

That's my opinion anyway! 🙂
 
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I think the thing with Sage is that I’m not sure he can really feel hard done by here.

We’re not talking about a manager with a thousand games under his belt, years of top-level experience and a track record that means he should automatically be expected to challenge for trophies. Palace took a punt on somebody with a hundred-odd games as a top-flight manager and asked him to come in and do a job.

He went into Lens after Will Still, where things had become a bit of a shitshow, and sometimes simply bringing order to a fundamentally decent team with good players can create momentum very quickly. We’ve seen that ourselves. Think Roy Hodgson coming in after the Frank de Boer debacle. We actually had a decent side, it just needed organising. Likewise Hodgson after Vieira, and then Glasner after Hodgson.

The problem is that Sage currently looks a bit out of his depth.

I don’t think he can have too many complaints about the opportunity he’s been given. Ligue 1 is not the Premier League, and the tactical nuances, pace and pressure are different. He has to adapt his style accordingly.

It may well be that at Lens he found something that worked after what Will Still was doing hadn’t worked, and that created momentum. Once you get momentum, it can carry you a surprisingly long way. Leicester won the Premier League in 2016. Sometimes everything aligns for a season.

But Palace have given Sage a very good opportunity. I’d actually argue Sage has been given a better opportunity by Palace than Palace have got by appointing Sage.

The squad has more depth than before. Riad getting injured in the first game was desperately unfortunate, and he came into the job knowing that some of the bigger players might be sold. None of that was hidden from him.

It may ultimately prove to be a case of the right manager at the wrong time, which in practical terms still makes him the wrong manager.

What he cannot do is remain welded to the same approach when it plainly isn’t working. He has to adapt tactically and find a way of making this side competitive.

Because at the moment, conceding inside the first ten minutes almost every week means you’re effectively starting every game 1-0 down. From there you’re immediately chasing the game, the opposition can play on their terms, and whatever tactical plan you had has already been thrown in the bin.

That simply isn’t sustainable.
 
I think you have to put all this in the context of who left, and who was left behind against their wishes.

We lost La Croix and Munoz, not only two excellent players, but two seasoned pros and part of the core of the team. Guehi went six months before that. Eze before that.

To say we kept Mateta is one way of putting it. I'd be amazed if that was by choice given what we saw when Guehi's contract was running down. I imagine we just couldn't sell him. Hopefully JPM will play and perform, but I imagine the plan was for him not to be here.

In other words, a big chunk of the core of the FA Cup winning side has gone or all-but gone in a year. In that context, we needed hardened, proven players to replace them. McNeill has obviously been of interest for a while, and could be OK (if Sage ever picks him). He at least knows the league. Disasi I agreed with at the time, and still hope he will do OK in a more coherent defensive set up. Tomiyasu seems really good but we all knew he was a massive gamble (so far, one we are losing). Chilwell is like Tomiyasu - he has quality but there is a reason we got him for free and nobody else wanted him. He did very little when he was here last time, and has done very little so far this time. Guessand was, to my mind, shite last season and I have no idea why we got him back.

When you add it all up, the outgoings and the incomings just don't tally at all. Of course, we were never going to replace some of those players like-for-like, but surely that just made it all the more obvious that we were going to have a much weaker team?

That's the thing for me. I have no time at all for this idea of squad depth. This is Palace. We can barely afford a first team good enough for the league, surely spreading our money even further to put together a deeper squad was only ever going to dilute the quality to the point of failure?

The classic example is selling Munoz, an established, battle-hardened player we could rely on to bring in Khalili and Mingueza. On paper we have two players now for one position. Great. Except neither is obviously good enough. What looked good on a director of football spreadsheet has undermined the actual team on the grass.

What is more, by bringing in too many average players at the same time we have blocked many of them from establishing themselves. Gozo, Osario, McNeill, and even Guessand must look at the team and think 'I'm surely as good as some of these, yet here I am, kicking my heels'. They have all barely seen the light of day. At least half of them must be starting to regret joining us.

Yet at the other extreme we have inexperienced kids like Khalili playing very week and getting murdered. What should have happened is that we had established, senior players (unspectacular, but solid), supported by a few promising players. Then the likes of Gozo, Osario, Honest, Khalili, and especially Canvot, would be playing once in every four games or so, dipping their toes in, getting their fingers burnt here and there, coming back out to reflect and regroup, before going back in.

There is no hierarchy of seniority now to the team and squad. Just a large pool of average, inexperienced players floundering in the absence of structure.

For me, it was a crap window because of the flawed mindset that underpinned it: Squad depth and development potential ahead of team quality. I imagine we will sack Sage sooner or later, and if his replacement is at all experienced then he will start by trimming the squad, building the team around a core of experience, and drip feeding the newer, younger players in, bit at a time, as has worked pretty well for 150 years!

That's my opinion anyway! 🙂
Spot on. Agree with all of this
 
The real problem is our inability to succession plan and buy good quality players wisely. Several EPL peer clubs have much better quality players and a decent squad (BH&A, as an example). Selling players on at a profit is a necessity for most EPL clubs outside the top six. Our problem is that forward planning is almost non existant as demonstrated on many occasions when most of our activity in transfer windows is usually in the last hours before the deadline when the market has just the out of contracts players that nobody wants or loan players that are not good enough to command place in the squads of their home clubs who in turn just want to send them out on loan to subsidise or cover their wages. Whilst Sage is responsible for the tactics and selected line ups it can't be easy when you have such poor quality in depth, a situation which was not of his making. If he is the wrong person in the job then the responsibility has to be with those who appointed him!
 
Three well thought out posts above. I agree with TBTP about squad depth. I always said that it was unlikely that we, CP, were the sort of club that can accomodate then motivate a really deep squad like the rich-boys do. I mean, look at the numbers of playsers at these clubs that could and probably walk into our first-11 and you don't hear a peep out of them. With us, as soon as anybody gets rested (dropped in old language) they cry and start, evidently longing for a transfer "so they can get more playing time", which, translated, means to a bigger club and get paid more for not even making the bench. On the other hand, if we can't rotate players then it makes no sense to even challenge for honours and European competitions. Dammed if you do and dammend if you don't. I think that building the squad with averagely good players is what SP/Hobbs wer trying to do but a few appear to be below-average or constantly injured i.e. the cheaper option because of the financial situation that penalses clubs like ours.
To pick up on the point point about making the overwhelmingly most of our purchases atthe end of windows. I actually believe that this is because the players/agents initially don't want to come to CP and wait for other "better" (i.e. money) options. Where I begin to despair is, for instand B &HA (grr) always seem to acquire players on the quiet, stick in the reserves/out on loan for couple years etc. whilst all of our activities are accompanied with weeks of clickbait and fanfare. Presumably this is no help in the task of unearthing gems!
Whilst agreeing that Sage has probably not been given a clean hand here it must said, also like above, that he has to be partly to blame. I mean, he was actually quite early in the summer and i cannot believe he didn't have some say in the squad building??? Even players that we were apparently bidding for and that previously played for him declined to make South Norwood their home.
 
For me, what we're missing is a leader and someone who can marshal the backline. I don't agree that all of our signings were terrible, we perhaps just made too many changes in the last 12 months than was wise. If Sage can fix the backline, I think we have enough quality going forward. That, though, is easier said than done.
 
Football is a simple game made difficult by managers, the old adage's are still true, if the ball is in the opponents half you wont concede and you have more chance to score, over complicating it for managers who haven't got the players is recipe for disasters, that is why Hodgson and Coppell have been manager of Palace 6 times between them.
It’s always about the players for me, I think we’ve just got to accept our trophy wins are just a moment in time, we had good players who clicked into a good team, but we’re a small club that can’t sustain success, we’ve already lost four of the FA cup final team with two more who are bit parts now and can’t wait to jump ship and we’ve not done a good job of replacing the good players,plus what good players we have got left are struggling with the lack of quality around them and the tinkering because of that lack of quality.
I think things will improve in the league, it’s a long season and we’re always up and down in form, but it’s not going to be another great trophy winning season whether sage survives the chop or not
 
It’s always about the players for me, I think we’ve just got to accept our trophy wins are just a moment in time, we had good players who clicked into a good team, but we’re a small club that can’t sustain success, we’ve already lost four of the FA cup final team with two more who are bit parts now and can’t wait to jump ship and we’ve not done a good job of replacing the good players,plus what good players we have got left are struggling with the lack of quality around them and the tinkering because of that lack of quality.
I think things will improve in the league, it’s a long season and we’re always up and down in form, but it’s not going to be another great trophy winning season whether sage survives the chop or not
Yeah, we'll just have to settle for the Carabao Cup this year.
 
Good players help of course, but the true art is building a consistent team that functions as a unit which outperforms the sum of it's parts.
Pulis would be an example, finishing eleventh with a team of largely average players and making us a difficult team that nobody relished playing.

Glasner to a certain extent too.
Yes, we had better players under him , but he was instrumental in changing the psychology of the club that anything was possible.
It was a strange feeling to turn up at a Palace game and think you had a reasonable chance regardless of the opposition.

At the moment Sage does not convey the bloody minded resilience of a Pulis or the supreme self confidence of a Glasner.
The best managers are able in applying psychology to make players believe they are better than they are so they outperform, or alternatively hint the players are not quite good enough so they become determined to prove the manager wrong and again outperform.
 
Some excellent posts… agree with pretty much all of the above. The big problem with replacing classy players like Olise, Eze, Guehi and Munoz is that they are not likely to be replaced by an equivalent player. For a start, even if we can afford them, they will go to a bigger club for obvious reasons. We seem destined to be a stepping stone for young up and coming players, players on the up. That’s why spunking money on JSL and Brennan was madness. We got them with our Olise and Eze money. Are they equivalent replacements?
 
Good players help of course, but the true art is building a consistent team that functions as a unit which outperforms the sum of it's parts.
Pulis would be an example, finishing eleventh with a team of largely average players and making us a difficult team that nobody relished playing.

Glasner to a certain extent too.
Yes, we had better players under him , but he was instrumental in changing the psychology of the club that anything was possible.
It was a strange feeling to turn up at a Palace game and think you had a reasonable chance regardless of the opposition.

At the moment Sage does not convey the bloody minded resilience of a Pulis or the supreme self confidence of a Glasner.
The best managers are able in applying psychology to make players believe they are better than they are so they outperform, or alternatively hint the players are not quite good enough so they become determined to prove the manager wrong and again outperform.
Good post, Pulis did a great job with very average players, i think that is what we need to aim for, realism and organisation.
 
Yes I agree. There is plenty of blame to go around. Appointing a manager new to the Premier League with an expansive style when we were in rebuild phase. That was a poor decision. Then a poor transfer window leaving big holes in key positions. Then the manager refusing to adapt and continuing with tactics that are making us a shambles.
Which key positions would you say we have big holes? For me its only in the centre of defence. This was always going to be a problem but its not as if the club didn't try very hard in the last window to bring in two quality central defenders.
This is why Disasi was signed on loan and Honest. I seriously doubt we really wanted either of them but it ended up better than nothing.
People have criticized the sale of Munoz but I'd still do that deal now. Forest paid massively over the top for him and much as I loved Daniel he is definitely past his best
 
Which key positions would you say we have big holes? For me its only in the centre of defence. This was always going to be a problem but its not as if the club didn't try very hard in the last window to bring in two quality central defenders.
This is why Disasi was signed on loan and Honest. I seriously doubt we really wanted either of them but it ended up better than nothing.
People have criticized the sale of Munoz but I'd still do that deal now. Forest paid massively over the top for him and much as I loved Daniel he is definitely past his best
Centre back, midfield and right wing back.

Centre back is obvious. Centre midfield is incredibly thin if either Timber or Wharton are injured which Timber now is. Neither Mingueza or Khalali are good enough at the moment. No good having two sub standard options. Still leaves a gap on the pitch and a weakness opponents are continually exploiting.
 

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