Lyon away - Europa league

[JHB]

Sage should absolutely be given time and support. For one thing, even if he isn't quite what the board hoped he'd be, changing a manager early just creates instability. For another, he's walked into a period of significant flux where even an experienced premier league manager would need time to organise things. He did well in France, we didn't just appoint him for no reason at all. Plus, compared to his immediate predecessors he has a lot of very average players and not many good ones. Changing the manager won't change that. So yes, of course we should be behind Sage.

However...

I remain concerned at Sage's tactical approach. It's not so much that he wants us to attack more, it's what comes with that. It's the pressing game that I can't see working for us, not with our calibre of players and not given the quality of the league.

The idea that the attack is fine and we'd be ok if he could just fix the defence is, I feel, a simplistic misunderstanding. We commit bodies forward more under Sage, which means they are higher up the pitch when we lose it and there are more gaps behind them. Trying to press the opposition in their half when we lose it is the natural solution to having placed more bodies in attacking positions to begin with. They can't flick a switch and suddenly all be back in position in our half. It's the attacking strategy that creates the defensive frailty, especially the sense of chaos.

And it is chaotic. When they got their second goal last night, Mitchell seemed to have lost the scorer. However, he was the only palace defender inside the width of the goal, and he'd had to come all the way across from where he would normally be just to get close to the guy. The other four defenders, including the three 'central' defenders were outside the width of the goal because they'd all got dragged around chasing other players and trying to fill gaps aggressively rather than dropping off into a structured shape. They aren't great players anyway, so they need to work as a unit. Better defenders than ours would struggle in this system.

Perhaps Sage will make pressing work. I am concerned, however, that he hasn't looked at all the wider circumstances listed above and been more pragmatic. That much is on him.

So yes, it's very early and I'm behind Sage, but I can also see worrying signs in his work.

This is absolutely spot on

 

[Palacesince64]

As the saying goes “you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear!” Our back three last night consisted of a decent if somewhat slow right sided centre back, a talented young impetuous left sided centre back with attendance to go walkabout, and a sluggish central centre back with a touch like an elephant and no positional sense. We’re missing the organisation of a Guehi and the pace of a Lacroix. If Tomiyasu isn’t fit I suspect Lerma will replace Disasi. We might even have to consider playing Chilwell at centre back. He’s not the tallest but his positional sense, pace, and organisational ability would help considerably.
Our 2 right backs haven’t exactly shone defensively either but Munoz wasn’t the greatest defensively either. Selling Monoz was reasonable but selling Lacroix without signing an experienced replacement first was a mistake which will have to be rectified in January.

 

[KCeee]

I didn't think it was that bad.
Lyon away is a tough game, we didn't get embarrassed, 3-2 is a respectable defeat.

Our defense is pants at the moment, we need to find our best 3 and give them a chance to gel together... my take is that we actually need to invest in a good CB in the next transfer window as the hodge podge crew we've brought in aren't up to it.

Also, if we get beaten on the weekend I don't think it will spell disaster either, Brighton are currently the in-form team and we're going into this game as underdogs. Nobody would fancy Brighton away at the moment.

 

[Spiderman]

It’s time to lay off him though Willo. Your posts are just repeating the same nonsense week after week…’if we lose against so & so there will be spittle & fury’, ‘I have been contacted by lots of people who aren’t sure he is the manager for us’. It’s just inane twaddle and serves no useful purpose week after week.

We need to get behind the players and the manager and give them the time & support to work it through. We can all see where the issues are, let’s focus on getting it right.

It’s the same every season, whoever the manager is

 

[Spiderman]

Wharton captain isnt a issue your making it one , who would you have .

He got sacked by Textor you know that all honest guy who knows better , but he wanted his choice .
He turned Lyon around and got sacked winning games ask there fans . He is better than FDB by a mile so bad comparison really .
But agree with rest you said , im happy to stick with him until Xmas now . And has alot of people said he has only had 5 mins with the squad since joining , which is completely different to last year's team

With Hendo out, the captain should be Richards ( who captains the US) or, this may be controversial JSL. The way he was teeing up the other players and crowd against Forest was absolutely what was needed. He was also the one to put his arm around Khalaili after his mistake

 

[Teddy Eagle]

With Hendo out, the captain should be Richards ( who captains the US) or, this may be controversial JSL. The way he was teeing up the other players and crowd against Forest was absolutely what was needed. He was also the one to put his arm around Khalaili after his mistake

It's good to see players geeing the crowd up - LaCroix used to do it and Mateta has his moments.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

It's good to see players geeing the crowd up - LaCroix used to do it and Mateta has his moments.

I would once have agreed but have increasingly started to come to a different view in recent years.

I'm fed up with players urging the crowd on after they make a simple tackle or win a corner, just like I've had enough of seeing them all high five and/or cuddle each other every time one of them makes a routine block or pass. A performance worthy of self-congratulation is one where you do a good job across the whole 90 minutes, not just in moments. Too many players fail to understand this.

Also, I think you need to have earned a certain status to interact with the crowd. You have to have won our genuine respect over time before you can ask us to do more. I feel like I'm picking on him a bit at the moment, but I find Canvot a classic example of unearned status and misplaced self-importance. Get your head down son, learn your trade, you've got absolutely miles to go before you are even a good Palace premier league defender, let alone one who we all respect and admire. It feels like the opposite of being humble when he urges the crowd on. Stop waving your arms at me and win a f***ing header!

I can see when a player has done something worthy of vocal praise and am the first to provide it. I am also the first to shout encouragement generally. I don't need a cheerleader, though.

 

[Runningman]

If we get destroyed by Brighton Sage has to go.

Wharton is not captain material another one of his puzzling decisions.

I don't think the guy has a clue he has been in the game 5 min and been fired by people we got beat by last night who are not even a good team.

He's not looking any better compared to FDB (who record wise is far better on paper over his whole career) and only had few more better results due to he has been given more games.

I really hope I am wrong and he does come good but cant see it happening he is not even doing the basics which is allowing players to get used to each other he keeps changing things and his tactics are all over the place every game he has allowed midfield to be wide open.

Cobblers

 

[ex hibitionist]

What I do like about watching Palace for the last several years now is that we 'play' - we didn't really in the first half yesterday, though we stroked the ball about the middle of the pitch OK but we couldn't click in the final third, to me that has something to do with JSL's movement, he doesn't dart into spaces and doesn't seem to be too sharp positionally (plus his free header second half was atrocious). But under Oliie and Glasner we don't get timid performances, we might not play that well but we turn up. Sage is clearly a clever guy, the team is still some way off from his vision, but we went toe to toe with a top French side yesterday and it reminded me of the Strasbourg game last season - we are genuinely competitive in the Europa league and I am confident that improvement will come. And I agree we need to find a leader for our defence in January.

 

[stringmail]

We really should have a rule like my kids youth sports games, no talking to the coach for 24 hours after the game.

The comments on here after games are quite comical/dramatic. I quite enjoy the comments during the game but I can determine whether Palace won or lost by the number of pages in the match thread.

Yes, it has been maddening watching the back line but thinking about where we were pre-Glasner to now, it quite enjoyable and some of the recent matches has been entertaining for a variety reasons. I do hope our back line gets sorted out as it will make for a very comfortable season otherwise I fear we will be looking down the standings too frequently rooting for the misfortune of others. While we have somewhat righted the ship with the fortunate win against Forest, a 1-1 draw at Brighton will go along way towards feeling glad all over, while a 4-1 defeat will leave us with a long match game thread.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

I would once have agreed but have increasingly started to come to a different view in recent years.

I'm fed up with players urging the crowd on after they make a simple tackle or win a corner, just like I've had enough of seeing them all high five and/or cuddle each other every time one of them makes a routine block or pass. A performance worthy of self-congratulation is one where you do a good job across the whole 90 minutes, not just in moments. Too many players fail to understand this.

Also, I think you need to have earned a certain status to interact with the crowd. You have to have won our genuine respect over time before you can ask us to do more. I feel like I'm picking on him a bit at the moment, but I find Canvot a classic example of unearned status and misplaced self-importance. Get your head down son, learn your trade, you've got absolutely miles to go before you are even a good Palace premier league defender, let alone one who we all respect and admire. It feels like the opposite of being humble when he urges the crowd on. Stop waving your arms at me and win a f***ing header!

I can see when a player has done something worthy of vocal praise and am the first to provide it. I am also the first to shout encouragement generally. I don't need a cheerleader, though.

I take your point - maybe it comes across differently on telly.

 

[NEILLO]

Sage should absolutely be given time and support. For one thing, even if he isn't quite what the board hoped he'd be, changing a manager early just creates instability. For another, he's walked into a period of significant flux where even an experienced premier league manager would need time to organise things. He did well in France, we didn't just appoint him for no reason at all. Plus, compared to his immediate predecessors he has a lot of very average players and not many good ones. Changing the manager won't change that. So yes, of course we should be behind Sage.

However...

I remain concerned at Sage's tactical approach. It's not so much that he wants us to attack more, it's what comes with that. It's the pressing game that I can't see working for us, not with our calibre of players and not given the quality of the league.

The idea that the attack is fine and we'd be ok if he could just fix the defence is, I feel, a simplistic misunderstanding. We commit bodies forward more under Sage, which means they are higher up the pitch when we lose it and there are more gaps behind them. Trying to press the opposition in their half when we lose it is the natural solution to having placed more bodies in attacking positions to begin with. They can't flick a switch and suddenly all be back in position in our half. It's the attacking strategy that creates the defensive frailty, especially the sense of chaos.

And it is chaotic. When they got their second goal last night, Mitchell seemed to have lost the scorer. However, he was the only palace defender inside the width of the goal, and he'd had to come all the way across from where he would normally be just to get close to the guy. The other four defenders, including the three 'central' defenders were outside the width of the goal because they'd all got dragged around chasing other players and trying to fill gaps aggressively rather than dropping off into a structured shape. They aren't great players anyway, so they need to work as a unit. Better defenders than ours would struggle in this system.

Perhaps Sage will make pressing work. I am concerned, however, that he hasn't looked at all the wider circumstances listed above and been more pragmatic. That much is on him.

So yes, it's very early and I'm behind Sage, but I can also see worrying signs in his work.

I largely agree with this.

However....

I've written before that there are some parallels with Glasner's start two years ago. Although we haven't had to wait until the 8th game to register a win. Back then I had plenty of confidence in the manager turning things around.

But I don't have that same level of confidence this time around with Sage. Why ? Mainly because I don't think the current defensive unit is as strong. Lacroix and Guehi gave us a level of comfort that whatever shortcomings the overall team had, they had the quality to make up for them. Much as I like Chris Richards, his game improved with those two alongside him. He's rarely looked as comfortable this season. And why should he...Canvot is very hit and miss. Disasi may improve with a run of games but doesn't look anything special. And of course Sage has had to contend with injuries to Riad and Tomoyasu and Disasi's suspension - not conducive to establishing a unit when you rarely have the chance to select the same players consistently.

In a nutshell - I appreciate what Sage is trying to do. But I'm struggling to see it working out. I've always believed a successful team is built on strong defensive foundations. And I don't see that we have that whatever the permutations. And if it looks like I'm just pointing the finger at our defenders, I'm not. As a team Palace are just too easy to play though.

Last night I thought we saw some of the best and worst of how the team are playing. Disappointing to lose a game we could have at least drawn. But with the exception of the City defeat, all the other games results could well have turned out differently. And I'm sure that's a factor that Parish and Co. will consider.

So I'm also behind Sage. But I don't think it's going to end well for him.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

Sage would be wise to take a page from the playbook of American football coaches and have a separate "defensive coordinator" to organize the chaos in the back.

My first step would be to move our superb 1-v-1 defender Tyrick Mitchell to the back line and put someone/anyone else at wingback. Yes, Tyrick has grown into the attack role, and, yes, his fitness is an asset as a wing back, but his defensive prowess is sorely needed at the back of the pitch.

Isn't this Paddy McCarthy's job?

 

[park the bus]

I largely agree with this.

However....

I've written before that there are some parallels with Glasner's start two years ago. Although we haven't had to wait until the 8th game to register a win. Back then I had plenty of confidence in the manager turning things around.

But I don't have that same level of confidence this time around with Sage. Why ? Mainly because I don't think the current defensive unit is as strong. Lacroix and Guehi gave us a level of comfort that whatever shortcomings the overall team had, they had the quality to make up for them. Much as I like Chris Richards, his game improved with those two alongside him. He's rarely looked as comfortable this season. And why should he...Canvot is very hit and miss. Disasi may improve with a run of games but doesn't look anything special. And of course Sage has had to contend with injuries to Riad and Tomoyasu and Disasi's suspension - not conducive to establishing a unit when you rarely have the chance to select the same players consistently.

In a nutshell - I appreciate what Sage is trying to do. But I'm struggling to see it working out. I've always believed a successful team is built on strong defensive foundations. And I don't see that we have that whatever the permutations. And if it looks like I'm just pointing the finger at our defenders, I'm not. As a team Palace are just too easy to play though.

Last night I thought we saw some of the best and worst of how the team are playing. Disappointing to lose a game we could have at least drawn. But with the exception of the City defeat, all the other games results could well have turned out differently. And I'm sure that's a factor that Parish and Co. will consider.

So I'm also behind Sage. But I don't think it's going to end well for him.

Yes, this exactly. I await concrete evidence that it is going to be any different. Is the defensive unit as Sage envisions it working with the players at his disposal?. It hasn't functioned correctly thus far. I would expect Sage to have understood this and come up with an alternative within the bounds of reason, and not repeat the same format over and over. What can be done to fix it therefore? I'm left wondering if Sage can fix it, given the way he wants to set up. The two seem mutually exclusive.