Lyon away - Europa league

[mtp1958]

In reality, the scoreline is almost irrelevant, in my opinion. )

It’s the utter chaos that happens about 5/6 times a game that usually leads to goals. Is there a metric to measure this? Because we would be at the top of the league in this department. 😂

It's been like that for along time , we dont have one player that has a off day per match , one bad all bad hence the chaos that happened is a repeat of our previous seasons .
We cant get a settled defence if we keep changing it , we really need to stick with the same back 5 or 4 every game regardless of how we feel .
Keep swapping the defence around doesnt work , they are the only unit in the team that gets better the more they understand there roles . Midfield and attack changes games , but defence is the biggest area that must be regimental week in week out .
So the only thing I want is seeing consistency in the back line . If they have to play 55 games so be it .
And the ref is a CNUT

 

[park the bus]

We look like conceding three in every game. Only one we didn't was Leeds. We can obviously not concede three per game - or to put it another way 90-100 goals this season. We won't score that amount unless one of players gets thirty.

Sage is unlikely to change his approach, this is what he does and who knows, it may well work with a more competent back line. The fact remains however that he was dealt a poor hand in the transfer window, sick notes, loans, frees and rejects, most not good enough to play the game he wants. Many on here were excited by the number of incomings, but I did say that it was a smoke and mirrors job to cover up the lack of real quality. The Brighton game will be pivotal.

 

[MarkA333]

Yes, even a dignified defeat would be a step forward at this moment however I fear it will be an absolute drubbing. To think we were thrashing them in the League and FA cup a year or so ago. How far we have fallen. Eze, Guehi and Lacroix left with no adequate replacements in despite significant funds in for them. Instead we got Brennan and JSL, both useless and obviously the blame lies with the recruitment department. You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.

 

[doombear]

I am actually content to give Sage some time to see if his courageous style of football can succeed. However, one needs a settled and organised back three and Sage has not had that once this season in his defence. Interested to know which successful sides are playing his style of football, maybe PSG and Bayern Munich but they have world class players and we don’t.

More to the point, those two clubs have settled sides who have been playing attacking football for longer than Sage has been managing at the top level. I'm happy to give Sage till the New Year before beginning to question or otherwise his tenure.

 

[Phil’s Barber]

With respect, I have consistenty stated that I dearly wish him every.success and I haven't showered him with vilification.
I did however highlight the fact that whilst he has extensive coaching experience and spells as a No 2, he has relative inexperience as a manager in the 'Top seat' and the PL can be unforgiving. As someone said to me, a single impressive season in France does not mean that he is suited to the job in difficult circumstances.
I have had reservations about Pierre Sage but I wish him well.I certainly hope my fears do not become reality.

It’s time to lay off him though Willo. Your posts are just repeating the same nonsense week after week…’if we lose against so & so there will be spittle & fury’, ‘I have been contacted by lots of people who aren’t sure he is the manager for us’. It’s just inane twaddle and serves no useful purpose week after week.

We need to get behind the players and the manager and give them the time & support to work it through. We can all see where the issues are, let’s focus on getting it right.

 

[MarkA333]

I am pretty sure Sage knows where the issues are and we showed against Leeds we know how to play a more disciplined method while still threatening to win a game. That should be our blueprint.

 

[grumpymort]

If we get destroyed by Brighton Sage has to go.

Wharton is not captain material another one of his puzzling decisions.

I don't think the guy has a clue he has been in the game 5 min and been fired by people we got beat by last night who are not even a good team.

He's not looking any better compared to FDB (who record wise is far better on paper over his whole career) and only had few more better results due to he has been given more games.

I really hope I am wrong and he does come good but cant see it happening he is not even doing the basics which is allowing players to get used to each other he keeps changing things and his tactics are all over the place every game he has allowed midfield to be wide open.

 

[Willo]

It’s time to lay off him though Willo. Your posts are just repeating the same nonsense week after week…’if we lose against so & so there will be calls for him to go’, ‘I have been contacted by lots of people who aren’t sure he is the manager for us’. It’s just inane twaddle and serves no useful purpose week after week.

We need to get behind the players and the manager and give them the time & support to work it through. We can all see where the issues are, let’s focus on getting it right.

With respect the "Inane twaddle" is Yours Truly merely highlighting conversations I have had with supporters who have consistenly expressed reservations about Sage. Alas, with every setback such messages are amplified.
As for myself I dearly wish Sage every success at our club.

 

[OneStevePerrin]

I am pretty sure Sage knows where the issues are and we showed against Leeds we know how to play a more disciplined method while still threatening to win a game. That should be our blueprint.

Well, we certainly didn’t use that disciplined method against Forrest and Lyon after the one game this season where it worked - Leeds! I have no faith in the next two matches which will hurt us even more if I’m correct? I hope Sage / team prove me wrong 😑

 

[BromleyMonkey]

In reality, the scoreline is almost irrelevant, in my opinion. )

It’s the utter chaos that happens about 5/6 times a game that usually leads to goals. Is there a metric to measure this? Because we would be at the top of the league in this department. 😂

Only 5/6 times a game? I thought it was every time the other team had the ball and pushed forward 🤣

 

[BromleyMonkey]

Trouble is we could have Kane, Messi and Ronaldo up there and still lose.

What about Aylott, McCulloch and Akinbiyi?

 

[Teddy Eagle]

What about Aylott, McCulloch and Akinbiyi?

Yes, we'd lose with them as well but by a considerably larger margin.

 

[mtp1958]

If we get destroyed by Brighton Sage has to go.

Wharton is not captain material another one of his puzzling decisions.

I don't think the guy has a clue he has been in the game 5 min and been fired by people we got beat by last night who are not even a good team.

He's not looking any better compared to FDB (who record wise is far better on paper over his whole career) and only had few more better results due to he has been given more games.

I really hope I am wrong and he does come good but cant see it happening he is not even doing the basics which is allowing players to get used to each other he keeps changing things and his tactics are all over the place every game he has allowed midfield to be wide open.

Wharton captain isnt a issue your making it one , who would you have .

He got sacked by Textor you know that all honest guy who knows better , but he wanted his choice .
He turned Lyon around and got sacked winning games ask there fans . He is better than FDB by a mile so bad comparison really .
But agree with rest you said , im happy to stick with him until Xmas now . And has alot of people said he has only had 5 mins with the squad since joining , which is completely different to last year's team

 

[Teddy Eagle]

As well as LaCroix going we've lost Munoz who was an important player, Henderson has been out, his two main strikers haven't been playing, injuries have meant he hasn't had a settled central defence and he's trying to bed in several new players.
Under the circumstances he's done pretty well.

 

[palace99]

Remember the Swansea game under pards, 3-1 up with a few minutes left and we somehow lost 5-4, you don’t get much more chaotic than that 🤣

especially as we were actually 3-1 down and then 4-3 up going into extra time !!

 

[palace99]

With respect, I have consistenty stated that I dearly wish him every.success and I haven't showered him with vilification.
I did however highlight the fact that whilst he has extensive coaching experience and spells as a No 2, he has relative inexperience as a manager in the 'Top seat' and the PL can be unforgiving. As someone said to me, a single impressive season in France does not mean that he is suited to the job in difficult circumstances.
I have had reservations about Pierre Sage but I wish him well.I certainly hope my fears do not become reality.

Have to agree with Phil Barber here - you are like the politician who supports the PM but constantly repeats negatives that 'other' people have mentioned.

Yes the Prem is unforgiving but there are mitigating circumstances. We have sold our best defender and our top 2 strikers have barely kicked a ball this season being the biggest ones.

Yes the defending is a massive concern ATM as is our inability to hold onto the ball at times. However, constantly 'suggesting' Sage might get sacked is not helping anyone.

A certain Brighton manager was pretty inexperienced when he arrived in the Prem yet he seems to be doing ok after a few dodgy periods.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

Sage should absolutely be given time and support. For one thing, even if he isn't quite what the board hoped he'd be, changing a manager early just creates instability. For another, he's walked into a period of significant flux where even an experienced premier league manager would need time to organise things. He did well in France, we didn't just appoint him for no reason at all. Plus, compared to his immediate predecessors he has a lot of very average players and not many good ones. Changing the manager won't change that. So yes, of course we should be behind Sage.

However...

I remain concerned at Sage's tactical approach. It's not so much that he wants us to attack more, it's what comes with that. It's the pressing game that I can't see working for us, not with our calibre of players and not given the quality of the league.

The idea that the attack is fine and we'd be ok if he could just fix the defence is, I feel, a simplistic misunderstanding. We commit bodies forward more under Sage, which means they are higher up the pitch when we lose it and there are more gaps behind them. Trying to press the opposition in their half when we lose it is the natural solution to having placed more bodies in attacking positions to begin with. They can't flick a switch and suddenly all be back in position in our half. It's the attacking strategy that creates the defensive frailty, especially the sense of chaos.

And it is chaotic. When they got their second goal last night, Mitchell seemed to have lost the scorer. However, he was the only palace defender inside the width of the goal, and he'd had to come all the way across from where he would normally be just to get close to the guy. The other four defenders, including the three 'central' defenders were outside the width of the goal because they'd all got dragged around chasing other players and trying to fill gaps aggressively rather than dropping off into a structured shape. They aren't great players anyway, so they need to work as a unit. Better defenders than ours would struggle in this system.

Perhaps Sage will make pressing work. I am concerned, however, that he hasn't looked at all the wider circumstances listed above and been more pragmatic. That much is on him.

So yes, it's very early and I'm behind Sage, but I can also see worrying signs in his work.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

Sage should absolutely be given time and support. For one thing, even if he isn't quite what the board hoped he'd be, changing a manager early just creates instability. For another, he's walked into a period of significant flux where even an experienced premier league manager would need time to organise things. He did well in France, we didn't just appoint him for no reason at all. Plus, compared to his immediate predecessors he has a lot of very average players and not many good ones. Changing the manager won't change that. So yes, of course we should be behind Sage.

However...

I remain concerned at Sage's tactical approach. It's not so much that he wants us to attack more, it's what comes with that. It's the pressing game that I can't see working for us, not with our calibre of players and not given the quality of the league.

The idea that the attack is fine and we'd be ok if he could just fix the defence is, I feel, a simplistic misunderstanding. We commit bodies forward more under Sage, which means they are higher up the pitch when we lose it and there are more gaps behind them. Trying to press the opposition in their half when we lose it is the natural solution to having placed more bodies in attacking positions to begin with. They can't flick a switch and suddenly all be back in position in our half. It's the attacking strategy that creates the defensive frailty, especially the sense of chaos.

And it is chaotic. When they got their second goal last night, Mitchell seemed to have lost the scorer. However, he was the only palace defender inside the width of the goal, and he'd had to come all the way across from where he would normally be just to get close to the guy. The other four defenders, including the three 'central' defenders were outside the width of the goal because they'd all got dragged around chasing other players and trying to fill gaps aggressively rather than dropping off into a structured shape. They aren't great players anyway, so they need to work as a unit. Better defenders than ours would struggle in this system.

Perhaps Sage will make pressing work. I am concerned, however, that he hasn't looked at all the wider circumstances listed above and been more pragmatic. That much is on him.

So yes, it's very early and I'm behind Sage, but I can also see worrying signs in his work.

We also create a lot of pressure by trying to play, or overplay, out of defence. It only needs one misplaced pass and we're in trouble - first time passing is alright for forwards but dangerous otherwise. No need to just belt it upfield every time but sometimes it helps if only to let them get some shape back. It would help if Mateta was there with his hold up play but maybe with Sarr coming back it might be thought we have someone capable of getting on the end of a clearance.

 

[park the bus]

Sage should absolutely be given time and support. For one thing, even if he isn't quite what the board hoped he'd be, changing a manager early just creates instability. For another, he's walked into a period of significant flux where even an experienced premier league manager would need time to organise things. He did well in France, we didn't just appoint him for no reason at all. Plus, compared to his immediate predecessors he has a lot of very average players and not many good ones. Changing the manager won't change that. So yes, of course we should be behind Sage.

However...

I remain concerned at Sage's tactical approach. It's not so much that he wants us to attack more, it's what comes with that. It's the pressing game that I can't see working for us, not with our calibre of players and not given the quality of the league.

The idea that the attack is fine and we'd be ok if he could just fix the defence is, I feel, a simplistic misunderstanding. We commit bodies forward more under Sage, which means they are higher up the pitch when we lose it and there are more gaps behind them. Trying to press the opposition in their half when we lose it is the natural solution to having placed more bodies in attacking positions to begin with. They can't flick a switch and suddenly all be back in position in our half. It's the attacking strategy that creates the defensive frailty, especially the sense of chaos.

And it is chaotic. When they got their second goal last night, Mitchell seemed to have lost the scorer. However, he was the only palace defender inside the width of the goal, and he'd had to come all the way across from where he would normally be just to get close to the guy. The other four defenders, including the three 'central' defenders were outside the width of the goal because they'd all got dragged around chasing other players and trying to fill gaps aggressively rather than dropping off into a structured shape. They aren't great players anyway, so they need to work as a unit. Better defenders than ours would struggle in this system.

Perhaps Sage will make pressing work. I am concerned, however, that he hasn't looked at all the wider circumstances listed above and been more pragmatic. That much is on him.

So yes, it's very early and I'm behind Sage, but I can also see worrying signs in his work.

Although it's early days we can see that Sage has more less less stuck to his approach, using players not particularly suited to the press. Looking at the league table we are minus 3 so not outscoring the opposition overall - any continuation of current methodology will only result in more of the same.
As you mention the board hired him, I presume they saw some continuation tactically to what Glasner achieved with 3 at the back, however they have failed to give him the tools with which to work. I have growing doubts as to whether Sage is the right person for the job, frankly the Premiership is a tough league and thinking we can outscore the opposition in an open game is naïve at best.

 

[JRW2]

Sage would be wise to take a page from the playbook of American football coaches and have a separate "defensive coordinator" to organize the chaos in the back.

....and from rugby union, where even junior clubs have a defence coach and an attack coach, as well as a scrum coach, lineout coach and kicking coach. Yes I know, totally different game - though bearing in mind the scuffed efforts of some of our players, a kicking coach might be an idea, and incidents do occasionally occur in football where a scrum coach might come in handy. 😉