Labour Party politics

[Badger11]

So lets assume the government gets it's way and we all have to carry digital id's. How could the government use or misuse that power (able to track your phone) and high likely is it to happen.

I believe the below which I have just given 5 minutes of thought to are actually possible and not fantasy.

-Accessing benefits, tax, NHS, or any public body will be by digital ID. Government has said this will happen.

- Government decides criminals don't need tagging. The phone will set restrictions e.g. if they are out after this time or venture into this area the police will be alerted? If they don't carry the phone they go back to jail.

- Cars will only start after you present you id (to safeguard your car from being stolen). Of course the government will block drivers who are banned from driving. They will monitor our driving e.g. you are now speeding and have been fined automatically....

- When buying a drink in the pub you will have to tap in first to prevent underage drinkers. People with ASBO'S maybe rejected. This logic will also apply to knives, smoking or any age restricted activity including websites.

Judges will issues warrants allowing the police to track a person by their ID and phone.

Voting will be managed by digital id.

Any others, try to be realistic please.

 

[Rudi Hedman]

So lets assume the government gets it's way and we all have to carry digital id's. How could the government use or misuse that power (able to track your phone) and high likely is it to happen.

I believe the below which I have just given 5 minutes of thought to are actually possible and not fantasy.

-Accessing benefits, tax, NHS, or any public body will be by digital ID. Government has said this will happen.

- Government decides criminals don't need tagging. The phone will set restrictions e.g. if they are out after this time or venture into this area the police will be alerted? If they don't carry the phone they go back to jail.

- Cars will only start after you present you id (to safeguard your car from being stolen). Of course the government will block drivers who are banned from driving. They will monitor our driving e.g. you are now speeding and have been fined automatically....

- When buying a drink in the pub you will have to tap in first to prevent underage drinkers. People with ASBO'S maybe rejected. This logic will also apply to knives, smoking or any age restricted activity including websites.

Judges will issues warrants allowing the police to track a person by their ID and phone.

Voting will be managed by digital id.

Any others, try to be realistic please.

That’s going to need police stopping and checking people, or how will the government know?

 

[Badger11]

That’s going to need police stopping and checking people, or how will the government know?

My comment was probably not clear. I am suggesting that instead of a judge making a criminal wear a tag they might use the combination of mobile phone and id instead. It's just speculation. If a person strays outside of the restrictions then the police / Parole people are alerted.

 

[Rudi Hedman]

My comment was probably not clear. I am suggesting that instead of a judge making a criminal wear a tag they might use the combination of mobile phone and id instead. It's just speculation. If a person strays outside of the restrictions then the police / Parole people are alerted.

If they leave their phone at home then they need to be stopped and checked or nobody will know.

 

[Badger11]

If they leave their phone at home then they need to be stopped and checked or nobody will know.

Sure that is the flaw in my suggestion.

 

[eaglesdare]

So lets assume the government gets it's way and we all have to carry digital id's. How could the government use or misuse that power (able to track your phone) and high likely is it to happen.

I believe the below which I have just given 5 minutes of thought to are actually possible and not fantasy.

-Accessing benefits, tax, NHS, or any public body will be by digital ID. Government has said this will happen.

- Government decides criminals don't need tagging. The phone will set restrictions e.g. if they are out after this time or venture into this area the police will be alerted? If they don't carry the phone they go back to jail.

- Cars will only start after you present you id (to safeguard your car from being stolen). Of course the government will block drivers who are banned from driving. They will monitor our driving e.g. you are now speeding and have been fined automatically....

- When buying a drink in the pub you will have to tap in first to prevent underage drinkers. People with ASBO'S maybe rejected. This logic will also apply to knives, smoking or any age restricted activity including websites.

Judges will issues warrants allowing the police to track a person by their ID and phone.

Voting will be managed by digital id.

Any others, try to be realistic please.

- If you don't have your 9th booster shot you won't be able to leave your home....

 

[Stirlingsays]

Sure that is the flaw in my suggestion.

The Chinese already thought of that for their system.
They significantly upgraded CCTV to analyse faces and identify people and their movements. So not having your phone doesn't work for long....probably means you get punished harsher, unless you can prove it stolen.
If you hide your face you can be stopped and so on.

 

[Matov]

More I hear about this digital ID nonsense, from the actual Labour types pushing it, the more I believe it is a ruse. Oldest trick in the book is if you don't like the story being told, then change the narrative. This time last week it was all about the illegals and the economy. nd now? As Labour start their conference? This nonsense.

Its simply not going to wash as a genuine policy without the back up of being a manifestio pledge. Risks major rebellion even from within Starmers own ranks.

We are being played on this. As simple as that. Might not even be anything to do with my previous silver foil-hatted rantings about this all being about Starmer trying to screw Blair over.

Simply a traditional old political tactic since forever. A cheap trick.

 

[Badger11]

The Chinese already thought of that for their system.
They significantly upgraded CCTV to analyse faces and identify people and their movements. So not having your phone doesn't work for long....probably means you get punished harsher, unless you can prove it stolen.
If you hide your face you can be stopped and so on.

Thanks, I was just throwing stuff up in the air without too much thought to the detail. But hopefully people will see my point.

No government will come out and say we are going to track your every move, purchase and website you visit. It will be a gradual erosion, "why be afraid if you don't break the law?

I note that the Swiss are having a second referendum today about the same thing, digital id's. They rejected it 3 years ago for the reason I outlined previously (they already have id cards). Well we all know have referendums work, you keep getting them until you give the government the correct answer.

Matov maybe right, over 2m have now signed the petition I cannot see this getting legs so it has to be a tactic to distract the public from the real issues.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Thanks, I was just throwing stuff up in the air without too much thought to the detail. But hopefully people will see my point.

No government will come out and say we are going to track your every move, purchase and website you visit. It will be a gradual erosion, "why be afraid if you don't break the law?

I note that the Swiss are having a second referendum today about the same thing, digital id's. They rejected it 3 years ago for the reason I outlined previously (they already have id cards). Well we all know have referendums work, you keep getting them until you give the government the correct answer.

Matov maybe right, over 2m have now signed the petition I cannot see this getting legs so it has to be a tactic to distract the public from the real issues.

For Starmer I think none of it makes that much sense....it would take till the end of his term to even come online so it's not as if it really helps him do anything.

Just makes him even more unpopular.

I think we will probably see a challenge to his leadership within a year and this will probably be scrapped when a new leader comes in.....Phillips or Burham.

As the general direction of travel of governmental control over us.....Damn right....All those Davos fan boys and girls want the Chinese social credit system where we all are ants for their protected crony hive system.

This is something we all have to fight for as long as we can.

 

[Stirlingsays]

14 fecking years the Tories had to address this! Instead they embraced it.

 

[steeleye20]

The police will not be allowed to demand your digital ID.

So it says on the gov website.

Mmmm not sure about that one......

😎

 

[Eagleman13]

The Chinese already thought of that for their system.
They significantly upgraded CCTV to analyse faces and identify people and their movements. So not having your phone doesn't work for long....probably means you get punished harsher, unless you can prove it stolen.
If you hide your face you can be stopped and so on.

I thought they already have that with LFR, especially in Croydon?

 

[silvertop]

So lets assume the government gets it's way and we all have to carry digital id's. How could the government use or misuse that power (able to track your phone) and high likely is it to happen.

I believe the below which I have just given 5 minutes of thought to are actually possible and not fantasy.

-Accessing benefits, tax, NHS, or any public body will be by digital ID. Government has said this will happen.

- Government decides criminals don't need tagging. The phone will set restrictions e.g. if they are out after this time or venture into this area the police will be alerted? If they don't carry the phone they go back to jail.

- Cars will only start after you present you id (to safeguard your car from being stolen). Of course the government will block drivers who are banned from driving. They will monitor our driving e.g. you are now speeding and have been fined automatically....

- When buying a drink in the pub you will have to tap in first to prevent underage drinkers. People with ASBO'S maybe rejected. This logic will also apply to knives, smoking or any age restricted activity including websites.

Judges will issues warrants allowing the police to track a person by their ID and phone.

Voting will be managed by digital id.

Any others, try to be realistic please.

Do you list these as bad things or good things? It seems a simple factual list without bias.

I have bias. I need to be persuaded that any of the points you list are bad. I remember the hullaballoo about the time DNA data was kept. It was expressed to be an infringement of our liberty... because... er... it was an infringement of our liberty. I never really understood how. If it was sold to insurance companies to determine premiums for life policies etc. that's one thing. However, if it were only used for law enforcement, who would care save someone who considers themselves likely to re-commit?

Likewise ID cards. It would sit in my wallet next to my driving license where one indicates a legal right to drive and the other a legal right to live here and receive the benefits of living here.

If there are genuinely insidious reasons for opposing them, please list.

BTW, Reform oppose because Labour proposed it first. No other reason.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I thought they already have that with LFR, especially in Croydon?

I wouldn't know mate.

But I've seen the stuff the Chinese state use....quite something.

That said, the tech has been around for some time now, but it's still impressive to see it used and expanded to that scale.

Horrendous for the freedom of the individual.

Minority report-like.

 

[HKOwen]

I wouldn't know mate.

But I've seen the stuff the Chinese state use....quite something.

That said, the tech has been around for some time now, but it's still impressive to see it used and expanded to that scale.

Horrendous for the freedom of the individual.

Minority report-like.

China is not perfect, but it has low crime and people generally want a safe society with jobs, education , medical care etc same as most people in the world. Achieving this with the size of population they have is not easy.

They don't have rampant shop lifting, street crime, drug abuse. They understand a work ethic.

Same can be said for Japan, Taiwan and South Korea and many Asian countries to a lesser degree.

In my view it's hard to see how far the UK has fallen, the cities in particular unless you travel abroad.

I drove around France for 3 weeks this year, not one pot hole in towns or countryside!!

 

[Stirlingsays]

China is not perfect, but it has low crime and people generally want a safe society with jobs, education , medical care etc same as most people in the world. Achieving this with the size of population they have is not easy.

They don't have rampant shop lifting, street crime, drug abuse. They understand a work ethic.

Same can be said for Japan, Taiwan and South Korea and many Asian countries to a lesser degree.

In my view it's hard to see how far the UK has fallen, the cities in particular unless you travel abroad.

I drove around France for 3 weeks this year, not one pot hole in towns or countryside!!

I will admit to its advantages....cctv already plays a major role in detection compared to the past.

However, we shouldn't be ignorant to the evils inherent within the system by what the technology affords, which I'm sure you appreciate as well.

It's less about the technology, it's about the intent of the people using it.

Was ever thus.

 

[Badger11]

Do you list these as bad things or good things? It seems a simple factual list without bias.

I have bias. I need to be persuaded that any of the points you list are bad. I remember the hullaballoo about the time DNA data was kept. It was expressed to be an infringement of our liberty... because... er... it was an infringement of our liberty. I never really understood how. If it was sold to insurance companies to determine premiums for life policies etc. that's one thing. However, if it were only used for law enforcement, who would care save someone who considers themselves likely to re-commit?

Likewise ID cards. It would sit in my wallet next to my driving license where one indicates a legal right to drive and the other a legal right to live here and receive the benefits of living here.

If there are genuinely insidious reasons for opposing them, please list.

BTW, Reform oppose because Labour proposed it first. No other reason.

Some of them are good (for the governments, employers and landlords) but I don't see why I should risk my freedoms just so it makes life easier for the civil servants who manage tax or benefits etc.

A digital id is different from a card as it has the potential to allow then to track your movements, your spending and the websites you visit.

I find it odd that Labour and Starmer have objected to photo id for voters but seem okay with this.

If you are fine with all this I have no problem with you having one. However I refuse to be forced into it as it will not solve the problem they claim it will e.g. illegal immigration.

I have just started probate for my father's estate and I have had to deal with his banks and the government and now the court of Probate. Oddly enough I had no trouble proving my identify to any of these institutions.

People who are lawbreakers will not comply with this.

 

[Badger11]

A brief summary of the BBS on Reform and the Labour Id scheme.

On Reform there is a consensus that Farage must be kept out of power as we will have a right wing authoritarian government. (I don't believe that).

On compulsory id's they are broadly in favour on the basis if you have done nothing wrong.....

It hasn't occurred to some of them, that if they genuinely believe that Farage is some kind of Nazi, why would they support an Id scheme that in the hands of his government is an ideal tool to control the population. So either they don’t really believe that Farage is a Nazi or more likely they haven't thought that one through.

In fairness a number of them are against it. It's not the government of the day it's the next one or the one after that.

 

[silvertop]

Some of them are good (for the governments, employers and landlords) but I don't see why I should risk my freedoms just so it makes life easier for the civil servants who manage tax or benefits etc.

A digital id is different from a card as it has the potential to allow then to track your movements, your spending and the websites you visit.

I find it odd that Labour and Starmer have objected to photo id for voters but seem okay with this.

If you are fine with all this I have no problem with you having one. However I refuse to be forced into it as it will not solve the problem they claim it will e.g. illegal immigration.

I have just started probate for my father's estate and I have had to deal with his banks and the government and now the court of Probate. Oddly enough I had no trouble proving my identify to any of these institutions.

People who are lawbreakers will not comply with this.

My post was not so much my personal view but more a cry to those clever posters on here to persuade me why. At present, it is just discussed in potential and theoretical risk - where any well thought law can carry the necessary checks and balances to address them.

Thus, while tracking movement through phones by government is not yet standard, MI5 etc. will do this for high risk subjects (no objection from me); and this already exists as a nasty issue with e.g. women forced to upload apps on their phones in controlling and coercive marriages.

The point is - what do you care if there is a record of you driving to Tesco to buy milk? How would it be used by the state to have any meaning in your life? If someone was to disappear, it could be used to trace them; if there was a murder it could be used to check an alibi. Both good things, no?

Also, if you genuinely think our spending and website visits are not already data stored and retained by those who readily exploit it without your permission, then you haven't been paying attention. On that, the cards will only shift the tech, not the fact.

Lawbreakers will, of course, not comply. But that may make it easier to divide them from the population who do comply and thereby make them easier to detect and control. You never know...