Israel v Hamas

[CPFCSaturn]

I have stated multiple times that Israel will have made f*** ups like any country in war but especially with the challenges of urban warfare with lots of grey areas in terms of legality. However you have to be more specific about what you think I should or shouldn't defend about what's happened in the conflict. I cannot defend them for breaking the recent ceasefire. But I will defend them ahead of Islamic Jihadists all day long!

My point is more to query why you can continue to defend them (I think anyone who's read this thread will agree you defend Israel) from your armchair, but people can't criticise them from their own armchair..?

How far does that logic extend? Should we only permit US-based posters to contribute to the US Politics thread, since everyone else is commenting from an armchair on the other side of the world?

Russia/Ukraine thread will need closing down completely, and any condemnation of Russia must be withdrawn since it's made from an armchair on the other side of the world..? Criticism of Russian military action would also be grossly discriminatory towards Russians, of course.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Talking about Marxist ideology... you're really floundering 🤣

So seemingly your answer to my question is 'no, the logic doesn't extend to any other foreign government or military in the world' - it is a logic completely unique to Israel... the only government/military in the world who cannot be criticised.

And you actually think people will buy that utter guff?

You are a Marxist. I would not say that ideology is a logical one to follow. Especially when it is bigoted towards Jews. So no wonder you think it's guff!

 

[CPFCSaturn]

You are a Marxist. I would not say that ideology is a logical one to follow. Especially when it is bigoted towards Jews. So no wonder you think it's guff!

Stop deflecting.

I'm just clarifying your view is that Israel are the only government and the only military on the planet who cannot be criticised without being discriminatory.

And you have the cheek to talk to me about logic 🤣

 

[Penge Eagle]

Stop deflecting.

I'm just clarifying your view is that Israel are the only government and the only military on the planet who cannot be criticised without being discriminatory.

And you have the cheek to talk to me about logic 🤣

It's not a deflection at all. Marxists don't understand nuance, is my point. How can you when you view everything through the oppressed vs the oppressor lens.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

It's not a deflection at all. Marxists don't understand nuance, is my point. How can you when you view everything through the oppressed vs the oppressor lens.

It's a very clear deflection as I've walked you through the logical extension of your claims, and now you feel a bit silly and have started talking about Marxism 🤣

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

I have already stated this, but just to humour you... In general I support Israel in the conflict, yes. They will do many wrong things, like any country does when at war. I am unable to determine each action in real time as we get distorted information from a war zone. I find it very peculiar that you are happy to criticise them from your armchair in Cornwall without knowing the full facts. There is no way you can. That says a lot about your prejudice.

You haven’t stated before. Not in any answers to me.

But we make some progress, but raise more questions. You don’t support them unconditionally but won’t describe what you believe is wrong because you don’t trust the information you are seeing.

Whose responsibility is that? Would it not be improved by allowing independent journalists to access and report? If they are willing to do so, why would Israel restrict them?

If I don’t know the full facts, nor do you, or actually anyone else anywhere. Including the Israeli government. I criticise on what seems self evident. For which full facts are unnecessary.

Those being that the innocent are suffering and dying in circumstances that could be avoided, if Israel chose to avoid them.

It’s doubtless true that Hamas use civilians as human shields and hide themselves in urban areas.

It’s also true that the IDF is a very well trained and superbly equipped military with access to the most modern weaponry.

They also possess surveillance and intelligence capabilities which are the envy of the world.

You don’t need to be a military expert to question why these capabilities are not able to be used in ways to strategically target Hamas. If they can do it in Iran why not in Gaza?

It might require more time, perhaps much more time, but it would also allow the innocent to survive and for aid to be distributed without interference.

You don’t need to be a military expert to question the motivation that lies behind Israel’s approach given the many statements made by the hard liners in their government.

When excuses look like ducks they probably are ducks.

 

[steeleye20]

Channel 4 to air the Gaza doctors documentary rejected by ridiculous BBC.

'More than 400 media figures urge BBC board to remove Robbie Gibb over Gaza

'BBC crippled by the fear of being perceived as critical of the Israeli government'.


😎

 

[Penge Eagle]

Yes, certainly - does that make me Islamophobic?

Do you understand context?

If a guy wearing a Ku Klux Klan outfit keeps attacking the Nigerian government. Is he simply criticising or could there be a possibility it might be more than that?

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Stop deflecting.

I'm just clarifying your view is that Israel are the only government and the only military on the planet who cannot be criticised without being discriminatory.

And you have the cheek to talk to me about logic 🤣

I don't think that criticism is the issue. It's selective criticism.

You would spend a month complaining about the IDF, but where are your multiple posts about Hamas or Russia or Christian slaughter in Africa? Maybe you could have a go with the murder of White farmers in Zimbabwe and South Africa. Or how about Pakistani rape gangs in this country?

No, you and people like you have the same agendas.

I don't for one minute think that the Israeli government are beyond criticism, but I see the bigger picture.

Why can't you?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I don't think that criticism is the issue. It's selective criticism.

You would spend a month complaining about the IDF, but where are your multiple posts about Hamas or Russia or Christian slaughter in Africa? Maybe you could have a go with the murder of White farmers in Zimbabwe and South Africa. Or how about Pakistani rape gangs in this country?

No, you and people like you have the same agendas.

I don't for one minute think that the Israeli government are beyond criticism, but I see the bigger picture.

Why can't you?

What is my agenda?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Do you understand context?

If a guy wearing a Ku Klux Klan outfit keeps attacking the Nigerian government. Is he simply criticising or could there be a possibility it might be more than that?

So how does that translate into criticism of Israel? What's the KKK outfit equivalent here..?

 

[Penge Eagle]

It's a very clear deflection as I've walked you through the logical extension of your claims, and now you feel a bit silly and have started talking about Marxism 🤣

You won't admit you're a Marxist because otherwise it would be checkmate!

Marxists are critical of Israel as a capitalist, nationalist and imperial-aligned state and typically side with the Palestinian cause.

Ideology trumps facts, reason and logic - even morality.

 

[Penge Eagle]

So how does that translate into criticism of Israel? What's the KKK outfit equivalent here..?

If you don't understand my example of how context matters when criticising a government then I really can't help you.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

You won't admit you're a Marxist because otherwise it would be checkmate!

Marxists are critical of Israel as a capitalist, nationalist and imperial-aligned state and typically side with the Palestinian cause.

Ideology trumps facts, reason and logic even morality.

The deflection continues.

I'm critical of Israel as a genocidal state.

Obviously your Zionist ideology doesn't trump facts, reasons and logic right? You're clearly completely fact-led and reasonable in your unconditional defence of Israel 🤣

 

[steeleye20]

The deflection continues.

I'm critical of Israel as a genocidal state.

Obviously your Zionist ideology doesn't trump facts, reasons and logic right? You're clearly completely fact-led and reasonable in your unconditional defence of Israel 🤣

Marx, of course, was jewish.

😎

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

What is my agenda?

Your agenda in this case is to highlight civilian deaths caused by the IDF without seemingly understanding the context or the reason why we are in this dreadful situation.

There are no good guys here. There is one group who hate the other and have done well before the modern state of Israel existed. Such is their blind hatred, that their leadership are prepared to sacrifice thousands of their own people in order to continue their campaign to kill all Jews.

How can you blame only the IDF? The IDF are the superior military force. Israel is constantly under attack. There are only around 10 million Israelis. There are 90 million Iranians alone.

Think about it.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

If you don't understand my example of how context matters when criticising a government then I really can't help you.

You're struggling today.

What is the relevant context that makes criticism of the Israeli government antisemitic?

 

[georgenorman]

Marx, of course, was jewish.

😎

His father converted to Christianity before Karl was born. His mother converted when he was a young child. Karl Marx was baptised as a Christian and later Confirmed - hardly Fiddler on the Roof.

 

[Spindle]

Talking about Marxist ideology... you're really floundering 🤣

So seemingly your answer to my question is 'no, the logic doesn't extend to any other foreign government or military in the world' - it is a logic completely unique to Israel... the only government/military in the world who cannot be criticised.

And you actually think people will buy that utter guff?

Israel is the only nation with a civil war that is not allowed to defeat the rebels.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Your agenda in this case is to highlight civilian deaths caused by the IDF without seemingly understanding the context or the reason why we are in this dreadful situation.

There are no good guys here. There is one group who hate the other and have done well before the modern state of Israel existed. Such is their blind hatred, that their leadership are prepared to sacrifice thousands of their own people in order to continue their campaign to kill all Jews.

How can you blame only the IDF? The IDF are the superior military force. Israel is constantly under attack There are only around 10 million Israelis. There are 90 million Iranians alone.

Think about it.

I get it - you think genocide is fine because Israel are 'one of ours' and because both sides hate each other. It's not that I don't understand these things, I just reject the logic.

I agree with the bit in bold - this is two bloodthirsty, genocidal groups trying their best to wipe each other off the map. I just wish everyone would be honest about that.