Israel v Hamas

ITV are airing a documentary tonight called 'Breaking Ranks: Inside Israel's War' sharing first hand recollections of IDF soldiers:



“If you want to shoot without restraint, you can,” Daniel, the commander of an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) tank unit, says in Breaking Ranks: Inside Israel’s War, due to be broadcast in the UK on ITV on Monday evening.

Some of the IDF soldiers who talked to the programme requested anonymity while others spoke on the record. All pointed to the evaporation of the official code of conduct concerning civilians.

The soldiers who agreed to talk confirmed the IDF’s routine use of human shields, contradicting official denials, and gave details of Israeli troops opening fire unprovoked on civilians racing to reach food handouts at the militarised distribution points set up by the US- and Israeli-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF).

“In basic training for the army, we all chanted ‘means, intent and ability’,” Capt Yotam Vilk, an armoured corps officer, says in reference to the official IDF training guidelines stipulating that a soldier can fire only if the target has the means, shows intent and has the ability to cause harm.

“There’s no such thing as ‘means, intent and ability’ in Gaza,” Vilk says. “No soldier ever mentions ‘means, intent, and ability’. It’s just: a suspicion of walking where it’s not allowed. A man aged between 20 and 40.”

Another soldier, identified in the programme only as Eli, says: “Life and death isn’t determined by procedures or opening fire regulations. It’s the conscience of the commander on the ground that decides.”

In those circumstances, the designation of who is an enemy or terrorist becomes arbitrary, Eli says in the documentary. “If they’re walking too fast, they’re suspicious. If they’re walking too slow, they’re suspicious. They’re plotting something. If three men are walking and one of them lags behind, it’s a two-to-one infantry formation – it’s a military formation,” he says.

Eli describes an incident in which a senior officer ordered a tank to demolish a building in an area designated as safe for civilians. “A man was standing on the roof, hanging laundry, and the officer decided that he was a spotter. He’s not a spotter. He’s hanging his laundry. You can see that he’s hanging laundry,” he says.

“Now, it’s not as if this man had binoculars or weapons. The closest military force was 600-700 metres away. So unless he had eagle eyes, how could he possibly be a spotter? And the tank fired a shell. The building half collapsed. And the result was many dead and wounded.”

The makers of Breaking Ranks spoke to a contractor identified only as Sam who worked at food distribution sites run by the GHF, who says he witnessed the IDF killing unarmed civilians.

He describes an incident at one distribution site where two young men were running in the general rush to get aid. “You could just see two soldiers run after them. They drop on to their knees and they just take two shots, and you could just see … two heads snap backwards and just drop,” Sam says. He recounts another incident in which an IDF tank in the vicinity of one of the distribution sites destroys “a normal car … just four normal people sat inside it”.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
ITV are airing a documentary tonight called 'Breaking Ranks: Inside Israel's War' sharing first hand recollections of IDF soldiers:



“If you want to shoot without restraint, you can,” Daniel, the commander of an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) tank unit, says in Breaking Ranks: Inside Israel’s War, due to be broadcast in the UK on ITV on Monday evening.

Some of the IDF soldiers who talked to the programme requested anonymity while others spoke on the record. All pointed to the evaporation of the official code of conduct concerning civilians.

The soldiers who agreed to talk confirmed the IDF’s routine use of human shields, contradicting official denials, and gave details of Israeli troops opening fire unprovoked on civilians racing to reach food handouts at the militarised distribution points set up by the US- and Israeli-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF).

“In basic training for the army, we all chanted ‘means, intent and ability’,” Capt Yotam Vilk, an armoured corps officer, says in reference to the official IDF training guidelines stipulating that a soldier can fire only if the target has the means, shows intent and has the ability to cause harm.

“There’s no such thing as ‘means, intent and ability’ in Gaza,” Vilk says. “No soldier ever mentions ‘means, intent, and ability’. It’s just: a suspicion of walking where it’s not allowed. A man aged between 20 and 40.”

Another soldier, identified in the programme only as Eli, says: “Life and death isn’t determined by procedures or opening fire regulations. It’s the conscience of the commander on the ground that decides.”

In those circumstances, the designation of who is an enemy or terrorist becomes arbitrary, Eli says in the documentary. “If they’re walking too fast, they’re suspicious. If they’re walking too slow, they’re suspicious. They’re plotting something. If three men are walking and one of them lags behind, it’s a two-to-one infantry formation – it’s a military formation,” he says.

Eli describes an incident in which a senior officer ordered a tank to demolish a building in an area designated as safe for civilians. “A man was standing on the roof, hanging laundry, and the officer decided that he was a spotter. He’s not a spotter. He’s hanging his laundry. You can see that he’s hanging laundry,” he says.

“Now, it’s not as if this man had binoculars or weapons. The closest military force was 600-700 metres away. So unless he had eagle eyes, how could he possibly be a spotter? And the tank fired a shell. The building half collapsed. And the result was many dead and wounded.”

The makers of Breaking Ranks spoke to a contractor identified only as Sam who worked at food distribution sites run by the GHF, who says he witnessed the IDF killing unarmed civilians.

He describes an incident at one distribution site where two young men were running in the general rush to get aid. “You could just see two soldiers run after them. They drop on to their knees and they just take two shots, and you could just see … two heads snap backwards and just drop,” Sam says. He recounts another incident in which an IDF tank in the vicinity of one of the distribution sites destroys “a normal car … just four normal people sat inside it”.
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Who can believe anything that is broadcast these days?
 
CPFCSaturn said:
ITV are airing a documentary tonight called 'Breaking Ranks: Inside Israel's War' sharing first hand recollections of IDF soldiers:



“If you want to shoot without restraint, you can,” Daniel, the commander of an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) tank unit, says in Breaking Ranks: Inside Israel’s War, due to be broadcast in the UK on ITV on Monday evening.

Some of the IDF soldiers who talked to the programme requested anonymity while others spoke on the record. All pointed to the evaporation of the official code of conduct concerning civilians.

The soldiers who agreed to talk confirmed the IDF’s routine use of human shields, contradicting official denials, and gave details of Israeli troops opening fire unprovoked on civilians racing to reach food handouts at the militarised distribution points set up by the US- and Israeli-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF).

“In basic training for the army, we all chanted ‘means, intent and ability’,” Capt Yotam Vilk, an armoured corps officer, says in reference to the official IDF training guidelines stipulating that a soldier can fire only if the target has the means, shows intent and has the ability to cause harm.

“There’s no such thing as ‘means, intent and ability’ in Gaza,” Vilk says. “No soldier ever mentions ‘means, intent, and ability’. It’s just: a suspicion of walking where it’s not allowed. A man aged between 20 and 40.”

Another soldier, identified in the programme only as Eli, says: “Life and death isn’t determined by procedures or opening fire regulations. It’s the conscience of the commander on the ground that decides.”

In those circumstances, the designation of who is an enemy or terrorist becomes arbitrary, Eli says in the documentary. “If they’re walking too fast, they’re suspicious. If they’re walking too slow, they’re suspicious. They’re plotting something. If three men are walking and one of them lags behind, it’s a two-to-one infantry formation – it’s a military formation,” he says.

Eli describes an incident in which a senior officer ordered a tank to demolish a building in an area designated as safe for civilians. “A man was standing on the roof, hanging laundry, and the officer decided that he was a spotter. He’s not a spotter. He’s hanging his laundry. You can see that he’s hanging laundry,” he says.

“Now, it’s not as if this man had binoculars or weapons. The closest military force was 600-700 metres away. So unless he had eagle eyes, how could he possibly be a spotter? And the tank fired a shell. The building half collapsed. And the result was many dead and wounded.”

The makers of Breaking Ranks spoke to a contractor identified only as Sam who worked at food distribution sites run by the GHF, who says he witnessed the IDF killing unarmed civilians.

He describes an incident at one distribution site where two young men were running in the general rush to get aid. “You could just see two soldiers run after them. They drop on to their knees and they just take two shots, and you could just see … two heads snap backwards and just drop,” Sam says. He recounts another incident in which an IDF tank in the vicinity of one of the distribution sites destroys “a normal car … just four normal people sat inside it”.
Click to expand...

Today I watched Russian drone operators fly drones into civilians trying to flee Pokrovsk.

It's heart-breaking and obviously a war crime. I've seen Ukrainian military doing war crimes.....Over the course of the war both sides filming and essentially committing war crimes with no comeback with obvious leadership allowance.

This is real life and what happens in conflict zones.....there is no 'parley', no chances taken....No humanity. It's the powerful preying on the weak everytime......Nature, red in tooth and drone, shell and gun.

Armies will knock buildings down with bombs rather than risk significant losses, even losing, in house to house fighting. The Americans did it in Iraq to cities.

When it comes to what's happening in Gaza it's obviously the same.

It's why war mongers are a cancer.....They are very rarely those that have to do the fighting and dying.

There is zero morality in it and civilians in Gaza are regarded the same way the Americans regarded the Vet Cong.....there is no way of knowing who is against you and who is passive and wants to stay out of it.

So the military regard them all the same, while officially looking for plausible deniability.

Different day, same sh1t.

Would the Muslims do the same to the Jews if they had the chance?.....one hundred percent.....Same as they did back when the middle east was largely Christian, before video cameras existed. Same as they are doing to Christians in Nigeria now. They were stupid enough to fall into the October 7th trap....this is what happens with stupid elites....people who can't play chess.

There are no good guys in war......Only narratives and justifications.

Only my tribe against your tribe......My resources not your resources.

To paraphrase Einstein, if you create Israel there then it will be continual war and it's why he refused the presidency back at the start.

This is why utopians, who ignore human nature, are the road to hell......If you create the conditions for sectarianism then that road only leads one way.
 
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Stirlingsays said:
Today I watched Russian drone operators fly drones into civilians trying to flee Pokrovsk.

It's heart-breaking and obviously a war crime. I've seen Ukrainian military doing war crimes.....Over the course of the war both sides filming and essentially committing war crimes with no comeback with obvious leadership allowance.

This is real life and what happens in conflict zones.....there is no 'parley', no chances taken....No humanity. It's the powerful preying on the weak everytime......Nature, red in tooth and drone, shell and gun.

Armies will knock buildings down with bombs rather than risk significant losses, even losing, in house to house fighting. The Americans did it in Iraq to cities.

When it comes to what's happening in Gaza it's obviously the same.

It's why war mongers are a cancer.....They are very rarely those that have to do the fighting and dying.

There is zero morality in it and civilians in Gaza are regarded the same way the Americans regarded the Vet Cong.....there is no way of knowing who is against you and who is passive and wants to stay out of it.

So the military regard them all the same, while officially looking for plausible deniability.

Different day, same sh1t.

Would the Muslims do the same to the Jews if they had the chance?.....one hundred percent.....Same as they did back when the middle east was largely Christian, before video cameras existed. Same as they are doing to Christians in Nigeria now. They were stupid enough to fall into the October 7th trap....this is what happens with stupid elites....people who can't play chess.

There are no good guys in war......Only narratives and justifications.

Only my tribe against your tribe......My resources not your resources.

To paraphrase Einstein, if you create Israel there then it will be continual war and it's why he refused the presidency back at the start.

This is why utopians are the road to hell......If you create the conditions for sectarianism then that road only leads one way.
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Yes, war crimes occur on all sides of conflict; Ukraine, Gaza, Iraq, and many others - and they should be condemned universally. But that doesn’t mean all actors are morally equivalent, or that the absence of perfect virtue means the absence of moral difference. Some armies attempt restraint, investigate abuses, and work within international law; others institutionalise terror or target civilians deliberately. To erase that distinction is to deny the value of accountability altogether.

The belief that 'there are no good guys' gives tyrants and extremists the excuse they crave; that everyone is just as bad, so morality doesn’t matter.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
Yes, war crimes occur on all sides of conflict; Ukraine, Gaza, Iraq, and many others - and they should be condemned universally. But that doesn’t mean all actors are morally equivalent, or that the absence of perfect virtue means the absence of moral difference. Some armies attempt restraint, investigate abuses, and work within international law; others institutionalise terror or target civilians deliberately. To erase that distinction is to deny the value of accountability altogether.
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I don't contest this.

CPFCSaturn said:
The belief that 'there are no good guys' gives tyrants and extremists the excuse they crave; that everyone is just as bad, so morality doesn’t matter.
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I've yet to come across a war (perhaps there are ones) where one side operated as purely the good guys and the other the bad.......That's how media portray it but when you study the subject you find the old familiar story of human beings acting the usual ways under huge stress.

Some sides are better than others, I can give you that.....In ancient times, Greeks were fairer than the Romans and so on.

The British and Americans better than the Russians in WW2 (though raping and pillaging did occur)....and the less said about Japan and Germany......Then again Truman dropped two nukes on civilians to end a war and was prepared to drop more.....which many still support to this day......We (with the Americans) did Dresden, which I regret and Churchill did the starvation blockage on Germany, which many didn't know about, which probably led to terrible consequences for prisoners.

But I'd agree that morality matters.....As an Englishman the killing of civilians just because they belong to another tribe pains me.....But it's not my war.
 
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Stirlingsays said:
I don't contest this.



I've yet to come across a war (perhaps there are ones) where one side operated as purely the good guys and the other the bad.......That's how media portray it but when you study the subject you find the old familiar story of human beings acting the usual ways under huge stress.

Some sides are better than others, I can give you that.....Greeks were fairer than the Romans and so on.

The British and Americans better than the Russians in WW2 (though raping and pillaging did occur)....and the less said about Japan and Germany......Then again Truman dropped two nukes on many civilians to end a war.....which many still support to this day.

But I'd agree that morality matters.....As an Englishman the killing of civilians just because they belong to another tribe pains me.....But it's not my war.
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I don't think anyone really thinks that (although to be fair, there seem to be some on here who think this war is as simple as Hamas = bad, Israel = good) - I think everyone expects some level of immorality in a war.

My point is that, even acknowledging the horrors that come with any war, Israel’s campaign has stood out for its brutality and disregard for human life. Framing this simply as “what happens in war” minimises the scale and inhumanity of what’s taking place, in my opinion.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
I don't think anyone really thinks that (although to be fair, there seem to be some on here who think this war is as simple as Hamas = bad, Israel = good) - I think everyone expects some level of immorality in a war.

My point is that, even acknowledging the horrors that come with any war, Israel’s campaign has stood out for its brutality and disregard for human life. Framing this simply as “what happens in war” minimises the scale and inhumanity of what’s taking place, in my opinion.
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Ok, but what about Israel's long term perspective?

If Israel don't get rid of their 'enemies at the gate' then they will suffer never ending terrorist attacks and eventually be outbred in the area and as their enemies eventually acquire the weapons needed to destroy them they will have little chance of holding out.

I understand why Israel are doing what they are doing.....It's about survival.....They have made the calculation it's them or us and are doing it while they still have a Zionist supporting US security state.....though Trump is probably p1ssed off that he's suffering for it.

Most Jews in Israel support the war.

Do I agree with the method used......No.

Do I agree that the two state solution can work.....No.

Am I glad I don't have to make the decisions......Yes.
 
Stirlingsays said:
Ok, but what about Israel's long term perspective?

If Israel don't get rid of their 'enemies at the gate' then they will suffer never ending terrorist attacks and eventually be outbred in the area and as their enemies eventually acquire the weapons needed to destroy them they will have little chance of holding out.

I understand why Israel are doing what they are doing.....It's about survival.....They have made the calculation it's them or us and are doing it while they still have a Zionist supporting US security state.....though Trump is probably p1ssed off that he's suffering for it.

Most Jews in Israel support the war.

Do I agree with the method used......No.

Do I agree that the two state solution can work.....No.

Am I glad I don't have to make the decisions......Yes.
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I think your assessment of what Israel is doing and why is pretty much spot on.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
ITV are airing a documentary tonight called 'Breaking Ranks: Inside Israel's War' sharing first hand recollections of IDF soldiers:



“If you want to shoot without restraint, you can,” Daniel, the commander of an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) tank unit, says in Breaking Ranks: Inside Israel’s War, due to be broadcast in the UK on ITV on Monday evening.

Some of the IDF soldiers who talked to the programme requested anonymity while others spoke on the record. All pointed to the evaporation of the official code of conduct concerning civilians.

The soldiers who agreed to talk confirmed the IDF’s routine use of human shields, contradicting official denials, and gave details of Israeli troops opening fire unprovoked on civilians racing to reach food handouts at the militarised distribution points set up by the US- and Israeli-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF).

“In basic training for the army, we all chanted ‘means, intent and ability’,” Capt Yotam Vilk, an armoured corps officer, says in reference to the official IDF training guidelines stipulating that a soldier can fire only if the target has the means, shows intent and has the ability to cause harm.

“There’s no such thing as ‘means, intent and ability’ in Gaza,” Vilk says. “No soldier ever mentions ‘means, intent, and ability’. It’s just: a suspicion of walking where it’s not allowed. A man aged between 20 and 40.”

Another soldier, identified in the programme only as Eli, says: “Life and death isn’t determined by procedures or opening fire regulations. It’s the conscience of the commander on the ground that decides.”

In those circumstances, the designation of who is an enemy or terrorist becomes arbitrary, Eli says in the documentary. “If they’re walking too fast, they’re suspicious. If they’re walking too slow, they’re suspicious. They’re plotting something. If three men are walking and one of them lags behind, it’s a two-to-one infantry formation – it’s a military formation,” he says.

Eli describes an incident in which a senior officer ordered a tank to demolish a building in an area designated as safe for civilians. “A man was standing on the roof, hanging laundry, and the officer decided that he was a spotter. He’s not a spotter. He’s hanging his laundry. You can see that he’s hanging laundry,” he says.

“Now, it’s not as if this man had binoculars or weapons. The closest military force was 600-700 metres away. So unless he had eagle eyes, how could he possibly be a spotter? And the tank fired a shell. The building half collapsed. And the result was many dead and wounded.”

The makers of Breaking Ranks spoke to a contractor identified only as Sam who worked at food distribution sites run by the GHF, who says he witnessed the IDF killing unarmed civilians.

He describes an incident at one distribution site where two young men were running in the general rush to get aid. “You could just see two soldiers run after them. They drop on to their knees and they just take two shots, and you could just see … two heads snap backwards and just drop,” Sam says. He recounts another incident in which an IDF tank in the vicinity of one of the distribution sites destroys “a normal car … just four normal people sat inside it”.
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Blame Hamas. They knew.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
Yes, war crimes occur on all sides of conflict; Ukraine, Gaza, Iraq, and many others - and they should be condemned universally. But that doesn’t mean all actors are morally equivalent, or that the absence of perfect virtue means the absence of moral difference. Some armies attempt restraint, investigate abuses, and work within international law; others institutionalise terror or target civilians deliberately. To erase that distinction is to deny the value of accountability altogether.

The belief that 'there are no good guys' gives tyrants and extremists the excuse they crave; that everyone is just as bad, so morality doesn’t matter.
Click to expand...

Yup, and in this case, Hamas are still far far worse than the IDF, morally
 
Stirlingsays said:
Ok, but what about Israel's long term perspective?

If Israel don't get rid of their 'enemies at the gate' then they will suffer never ending terrorist attacks and eventually be outbred in the area and as their enemies eventually acquire the weapons needed to destroy them they will have little chance of holding out.

I understand why Israel are doing what they are doing.....It's about survival.....They have made the calculation it's them or us and are doing it while they still have a Zionist supporting US security state.....though Trump is probably p1ssed off that he's suffering for it.

Most Jews in Israel support the war.

Do I agree with the method used......No.

Do I agree that the two state solution can work.....No.

Am I glad I don't have to make the decisions......Yes.
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Good post and yes pretty much all Israelis support the war. The only public outrage came not from bombing women and children but from risking their living hostages.
 
silvertop said:
Good post and yes pretty much all Israelis support the war. The only public outrage came not from bombing women and children but from risking their living hostages.
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About 70% do. That’s a significant majority but well short of all.

Whether they support all the war aims of the current government is another question.
 
82% of Haifans, just Mr & Mrs average Israeli, believe in the ethnic cleansing, the wiping out of the palestinians, it is just normal to them.

A glance at their education system. within CJs clip below, will leave you in no doubt as to the scale of their indoctrination from their first days of schooling.


😎
 
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