Israel v Hamas

CPFCSaturn said:
There’s a clear strategic reason why many pro-Israel advocates lean into Islamophobia; it’s far more effective in Western political discourse than trying to generate genuine sympathy for Israel’s actions. By portraying the issue as part of a broader “Islam vs. the West” struggle, they tap into existing cultural anxieties and redirect scrutiny away from Israel’s conduct.

It’s an old propaganda technique; shift the moral lens from “what are we doing?” to “which side are you on?”

You see it all the time on this thread.
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Birds of a feather peddle bullshit together.

You have tapped into the problem with people like you. You don't like reality.

The cultural anxieties are real. Our alliance with Israel is real. Islamists are a real threat.

You are using the old technique, currently known as gaslighting.

You don't like the bigger picture because it spoils your absurdly idealistic interpretations.
 
Hrolf The Ganger said:
Birds of a feather peddle bullshit together.

You have tapped into the problem with people like you. You don't like reality.

The cultural anxieties are real. Our alliance with Israel is real. Islamists are a real threat.

You are using the old technique, currently known as gaslighting.

You don't like the bigger picture because it spoils your absurdly idealistic interpretations.
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The fact that cultural anxieties exist doesn’t mean they’re not weaponised. In fact, the anxieties have to be real in order for them to be exploited.

The problem isn’t acknowledging threats, it’s using them to excuse another country’s actions or silence criticism. That’s not realism, just deflection - the idea that because you have concerns about Islam, you have to give a complete free pass to Israel to commit as many atrocities as they see fit, is so childishly silly I can't believe you keep making it.

You've certainly been gaslit, but I'd recommend further reflection as to who by - you harp on about me denying reality while you've convinced yourself your in an existential war with Islamists, and this somehow justifies a foreign military committing abhorrent war crimes at an enormous scale.
 
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CPFCSaturn said:
The fact that cultural anxieties exist doesn’t mean they’re not weaponized. In fact, the anxieties have to be real in order for them to be exploited.

The problem isn’t acknowledging threats, it’s using them to excuse another country’s actions or silence criticism. That’s not realism, just deflection - the idea that because you have concerns about Islam, you have to give a complete free pass to Israel to commit as many atrocities as they see fit, is so childishly silly I can't believe you keep making it.

You've certainly been gaslit, but I'd recommend further reflection as to who by - you harp on about me denying reality while you've convinced yourself your in an existential war with Islamists, and this somehow justifies a foreign military committing abhorrent war crimes at an enormous scale.
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I don't have to excuse or justify anything. You seem to think that our opinions matter. It is the Israeli government who will have to live with their decisions.

It's easy to say there is no Islamist threat, but that can only be true if Islamists are kept at bay. It doesn't happen by magic.

I don't have any issue with you caring for the lives of innocent Palestinians.
My problem is that you are only concerned with the welfare of one side. Your pal Silvertop made a point about the number of Muslims v Jews. He rather makes an argument for why Israel fiercely defends itself from the haters. They are massively outnumbered and isolated in the region. They no longer want to play the victim. They want to expand and feel safe in what they see as their holy land. Now, I have no time for religion, but I do understand why a group of people who have seen millions of their kind murdered throughout history might be a little aggressive in defending themselves now that they have some military power.

Israel is fighting a disgusting, ruthless enemy. You don't prevail by being nice. We didn't prevail against the Nazis or Japanese by being nice.

You need to recognise the harsh reality of war. It's easy to sit behind your laptop, splurging out holier than thou hand wringing. You aren't in the thick of it.
 
Hrolf The Ganger said:
I don't have to excuse or justify anything. You seem to think that our opinions matter. It is the Israeli government who will have to live with their decisions.

It's easy to say there is no Islamist threat, but that can only be true if Islamists are kept at bay. It doesn't happen by magic.

I don't have any issue with you caring for the lives of innocent Palestinians.
My problem is that you are only concerned with the welfare of one side. Your pal Silvertop made a point about the number of Muslims v Jews. He rather makes an argument for why Israel fiercely defends itself from the haters. They are massively outnumbered and isolated in the region. They no longer want to play the victim. They want to expand and feel safe in what they see as their holy land. Now, I have no time for religion, but I do understand why a group of people who have seen millions of their kind murdered throughout history might be a little aggressive in defending themselves now that they have some military power.

Israel is fighting a disgusting, ruthless enemy. You don't prevail by being nice. We didn't prevail against the Nazis or Japanese by being nice.

You need to recognise the harsh reality of war. It's easy to sit behind your laptop, splurging out holier than thou hand wringing. You aren't in the thick of it.
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Everything your posting is about justifying Israel's actions, whether you realise it or not - you're literally demonstrating the point I made about tapping into insecurities about Islam to garner support for Israel. You are the case study.

I am concerned with the welfare of the side being slaughtered, starved and tortured - yes. To suggest my concern should be split equally when one side of this is very obviously bearing the overwhelming majority of the suffering is again, just silly.

Whatever insecurities exists amongst Israelis, however justified, does not make their conduct any more acceptable to me.

What is interesting is you recognise how a historically oppressed people might be 'a little aggressive', but you make absolutely none of the same concessions in discussing Hamas, whose evil you seem to think is just inherent.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
Everything your posting is about justifying Israel's actions, whether you realise it or not - you're literally demonstrating the point I made about tapping into insecurities about Islam to garner support for Israel. You are the case study.

I am concerned with the welfare of the side being slaughtered, starved and tortured - yes. To suggest my concern should be split equally when one side of this is very obviously bearing the overwhelming majority of the suffering is again, just silly.

Whatever insecurities exists amongst Israelis, however justified, does not make their conduct any more acceptable to me.

What is interesting is you recognise how a historically oppressed people might be 'a little aggressive', but you make absolutely none of the same concessions in discussing Hamas, whose evil you seem to think is just inherent.
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You completely overlook the reason why the attack on Gaza started.

You ignore the fact that Hamas hide in civilian areas and use their people as disposable assets. You forget the years of hatred between the two sides, and you naively think that people who hate each other don't do bad things to each other in war.

The acid test for your standpoint would be if Israel came under a sustained attack. Would your left wing sensibilities allow you to weep for their women and children? I doubt it. When did you mention the hostages? Did you shed a tear for them?

At least I'm honest about my bias.
 
HKOwen said:
This
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And I agree (really!).

But for the umpteenth time, what about the Palestinians killed, seriously injured, starved, humiliated, forced to flee and live in appalling makeshift shelters who had nothing to do with Hamas or Oct 7?

c.67,000 dead and only a few thousand being Hamas or Hamas affiliated. And that 67,000 is considered a conservative estimate. So at least 60,000 innocent people deliberately killed by the IDF. That is also genocide. How can it be anything else?

I will stop "bleating" about them when someone gives me a good reason to stop.
 
silvertop said:
And I agree (really!).

But for the umpteenth time, what about the Palestinians killed, seriously injured, starved, humiliated, forced to flee and live in appalling makeshift shelters who had nothing to do with Hamas or Oct 7?

c.67,000 dead and only a few thousand being Hamas or Hamas affiliated. And that 67,000 is considered a conservative estimate. So at least 60,000 innocent people deliberately killed by the IDF. That is also genocide. How can it be anything else?

I will stop "bleating" about them when someone gives me a good reason to stop.
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Or collateral damage?

Was it genocide when we firebombed Dresden?

There is a ceasefire on going. You can stop bleating.
 
That is a very conservative estimate, the Lancet medical study put it 40% higher in Jan 25.

This does not include the many who are under rubble, dying, will die or have already died indirectly in Gaza, a figure of 4 times that amount is regarded as conservative by that journal.

186,000, 2.34% of the population of Gaza was their estimate in January now it will be significantly higher.
 
totoshkin said:
It was genocide when we firebombed Dresden - thanks Bomber Harris.
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It was a tactic to win WW2. That was the end goal. Genocide it was not, however I'm sure we would have killed every single German if that's what it took. Fortunately, it didn't.

It's just a pity we didn't take Russia out when we had the chance.
 
beak said:
There is pages of tripe on here so let us deal in fact for once. October the 7th 2023 Hamas went into Israel and Raped,shot and kidnapped Israeli citzens deliberately outraging human decency. When I was at Infants school one of my first lessons in the playground was that you do not kick the biggest boy in the backside and expect to get away with it there will be retribution coming back much harder. So well done to Hamas youv'e sown the seed and now you are reaping the whirlwind ( Marshal of the RAF Bomber Harris ).
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Sowed the wind I believe was said but otherwise absolutely correct
 
Wisbech Eagle said:
Getting your defence in early?

Blame AI being manipulated when it submits facts that disprove your conspiracy theories and outrageous assertions?

Maybe one day it might just occur to you that you are wrong.
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Ha ha ha last week you claimed that a video I posted was faked and could've been AI, but now AI is a truth source

Clown level debating
 
CPFCSaturn said:
There’s a clear strategic reason why many pro-Israel advocates lean into Islamophobia; it’s far more effective in Western political discourse than trying to generate genuine sympathy for Israel’s actions. By portraying the issue as part of a broader “Islam vs. the West” struggle, they tap into existing cultural anxieties and redirect scrutiny away from Israel’s conduct.

It’s an old propaganda technique; shift the moral lens from “what are we doing?” to “which side are you on?”

You see it all the time on this thread.
Click to expand...

Yes because a Caliphate is almost culturally symbiotic with northern European culture
 
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