Israel v Hamas

Penge Eagle said:
Only anti-Semites keep pushing the "Jewish lobby" conspiracy theory as a major factor. As I explained in my post, the USA's support of Israel is much more than that. Did you read it?

Did you ever consider how the US-Israel military aid deal worth $3.8billion a year might be a factor? The creation of US defence jobs, it maintains US influence in the region and helps strengthen the US military. It could explain their support of Israel.

The Arab Gulf states collectively spend more money in Washington than AIPAC for influence. Nobody talks about Qatar playing a subtle, long game to influence US foreign policy with $billions going to universities.

"Without accountability" Are you for real? More than any other country, every action is dissected by the UN, NGOs, the world's media and multiple governments.
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You need to stop pushing that rubbish. Some of the posters on here, maybe, but I see you as better than that.

And you have conflated support for support for what they are doing now. As I said, I support the existence of a peaceful and stable Israel. Most of the world does. But almost no-one supports what they are doing now. Any suggestion that you cannot separate the two is obvious nonsense.

And in terms of accountability, perhaps you can demonstrate where this accountability you correctly describe is holding anyone to actual account. Where is there any change in behaviour caused by international hand wringing, strong words and virtue signaling?
 
silvertop said:
Yeah, probably to distract from Klaus Fuchs who worked at Los Alamos and passed on all Oppenheimer's secrets to the USSR.
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Fuchs reasoning, his motive that no one country could have the bomb has been borne out in time, the only time a nuclear weapon was fired was Hiroshima by the USA when it was the only country to have it.

Recommended reading or listening 'Agent Sonya' by Ben MacIntyre.

😎
 
steeleye20 said:
Fuchs reasoning, his motive that no one country could have the bomb has been borne out in time, the only time a nuclear weapon was fired was Hiroshima by the USA when it was the only country to have it.

Recommended reading or listening 'Agent Sonya' by Ben MacIntyre.

😎
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You would never understand the reasons why they were dropped.
 
silvertop said:
You need to stop pushing that rubbish. Some of the posters on here, maybe, but I see you as better than that.

And you have conflated support for support for what they are doing now. As I said, I support the existence of a peaceful and stable Israel. Most of the world does. But almost no-one supports what they are doing now. Any suggestion that you cannot separate the two is obvious nonsense.

And in terms of accountability, perhaps you can demonstrate where this accountability you correctly describe is holding anyone to actual account. Where is there any change in behaviour caused by international hand wringing, strong words and virtue signaling?
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Using “Jewish lobby” blames an entire religious or ethnic group for the policies of a foreign state, which is anti-Semitic. The correct term is “Israel lobby”. Not all Jews share the same views on Israel and non Jews are members of AIPAC.

World leaders posture for political capital and it means jack s*** in reality. Israel are still allies and continue to trade and maintain other partnerships.

I don't understand your last point.
 
Penge Eagle said:
Using “Jewish lobby” blames an entire religious or ethnic group for the policies of a foreign state, which is anti-Semitic. The correct term is “Israel lobby”. Not all Jews share the same views on Israel and non Jews are members of AIPAC.

World leaders posture for political capital and it means jack s*** in reality. Israel are still allies and continue to trade and maintain other partnerships.

I don't understand your last point.
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You are correct. If you talk in absolutes - 100% do this 100% do that - you are stepping into dangerous territory. I guess I am using lazy shorthand to make my point succinctly on a football supporters message board.

The last point I made was that all the stuff you reference as "accountability" makes absolutely no practical difference. As you say, the trade between Israel and western nations is not insignificant. And, as I said to another poster, outwardly we condemn, we recognize Palestine, we line Israeli politicians up for war crimes; but in reality Israel continues to do what it pleases unchecked, with no chance whatever for a 2-state solution, with the perpetrators of these crimes likely to live a long a peaceful retirement in Israel, and with trade between the nations proceeding unabated.

(Re-reading your post i think we agree on that)
 
steeleye20 said:
Fuchs reasoning, his motive that no one country could have the bomb has been borne out in time, the only time a nuclear weapon was fired was Hiroshima by the USA when it was the only country to have it.

Recommended reading or listening 'Agent Sonya' by Ben MacIntyre.

😎
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If you mention jew hating anti semites then Steeleye will appear like saying Beetlejuice
 
silvertop said:
You are correct. If you talk in absolutes - 100% do this 100% do that - you are stepping into dangerous territory. I guess I am using lazy shorthand to make my point succinctly on a football supporters message board.

The last point I made was that all the stuff you reference as "accountability" makes absolutely no practical difference. As you say, the trade between Israel and western nations is not insignificant. And, as I said to another poster, outwardly we condemn, we recognize Palestine, we line Israeli politicians up for war crimes; but in reality Israel continues to do what it pleases unchecked, with no chance whatever for a 2-state solution, with the perpetrators of these crimes likely to live a long a peaceful retirement in Israel, and with trade between the nations proceeding unabated.

(Re-reading your post i think we agree on that)
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"Continue how it pleases" is a loaded phrase because it is entirely subjective. I think "continue how it pleases" is pretty much – but not entirely – how any sovereign nation should operate.

The government of Israel works for the people of Israel – not how English people in South London think they should run the country. You have to view it through this lenses... The Jews are unique in that they face the prospect of being wiped out as a nation so you can't be weak in a response.

Now this does come with consequences as Russia is finding out. But let's be honest, the UN has always been anti-Israel so that's an irrelevance.

Israel is too much of an important ally in the region to those who are wary of Iran and its proxies. Plus, there are many trade partnerships at stake... and money talks. Turkey is an example of a country "playing both sides" for its own interest. Apart from being part of NATO, they are friendly with Russia, they support Hamas but trade with Israel!
 
For a change I agree with much Penge says. There are salient points to be made.
The UN doesn't single Israel. Penge has already said a disproportionate response to aggression is the only way for Israel to remain safe.
The USA was a founding member of the UN, but has come under criticism in the past for (not least of which) the detention and treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay
two Key points was how Hamas managed to complete Oct 7 without any intervention.
And the disproportionate response to such an attack was always going to be the extermination and relocation of Palestinians, and Israel taking Gaza and the West Bank.
Coupled with incursions into neighbouring countries and the aerial attack on Iranian nuclear sites, it was obvious who was pulling the strings, not least because all the arms came with a "made in the USA " badge.

I just struggle with the man-made tragedy of hearing about Palestinians being killed. For fetching water, queueing for food, or in a safe tented area being bombed. These people don't deserve this. Does anyone think Hamas were fairly elected in a democratic election ?
Palestinians already lived in fear of Hamas, before being bombed, shot and starved to death by Israel. But I already think we are more likely to see the genocide completed, rather than a Palestinian State.
 
Forest Hillbilly said:
For a change I agree with much Penge says. There are salient points to be made.
The UN doesn't single Israel. Penge has already said a disproportionate response to aggression is the only way for Israel to remain safe.
The USA was a founding member of the UN, but has come under criticism in the past for (not least of which) the detention and treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay
two Key points was how Hamas managed to complete Oct 7 without any intervention.
And the disproportionate response to such an attack was always going to be the extermination and relocation of Palestinians, and Israel taking Gaza and the West Bank.
Coupled with incursions into neighbouring countries and the aerial attack on Iranian nuclear sites, it was obvious who was pulling the strings, not least because all the arms came with a "made in the USA " badge.

I just struggle with the man-made tragedy of hearing about Palestinians being killed. For fetching water, queueing for food, or in a safe tented area being bombed. These people don't deserve this. Does anyone think Hamas were fairly elected in a democratic election ?
Palestinians already lived in fear of Hamas, before being bombed, shot and starved to death by Israel. But I already think we are more likely to see the genocide completed, rather than a Palestinian State.
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Disproportionate including bombing Qatar?
 
chris123 said:
Disproportionate including bombing Qatar?
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How disingenuous.

Did you not want Hamas removed from the picture then? You're a supporter of a violent terrorist group?
 
chris123 said:
Are we buying their lng?
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We get most of our LNG from Norway and the USA..... We do sell them a s*** ton of weapons though. Where are the protests?
 
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