Israel v Hamas

[cryrst]

Of course true objectivity is a fantasy, but there is still a scale within that.

I also don't understand your initial point around 'passing the smell test' in context with the above - if the pro-Israel audience will disregard everything anyway, why should the documentary makers water down their message to try and appease them..?

You are incorrect.
I don’t disregard deaths I just think only change will stop them. Hamas hold the stop button but don’t want to use it. If Israel withdrew and stopped going after Hamas do you honestly think Hamas will disband. No they will regroup and go again. Then it’s back to square one.
What is the answer to it all ?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

You are incorrect.
I don’t disregard deaths I just think only change will stop them. Hamas hold the stop button but don’t want to use it. If Israel withdrew and stopped going after Hamas do you honestly think Hamas will disband. No they will regroup and go again. Then it’s back to square one.
What is the answer to it all ?

Incorrect about what?

What is the stop button that Hamas hold?

 

[eaglesdare]

You are incorrect.
I don’t disregard deaths I just think only change will stop them. Hamas hold the stop button but don’t want to use it. If Israel withdrew and stopped going after Hamas do you honestly think Hamas will disband. No they will regroup and go again. Then it’s back to square one.
What is the answer to it all ?

I agree. We all want the death and distruction to stop. We don't like civilian deaths or any deaths for that matter. All Hamas have to do is wave that white flag, disarm and disband and then the war is over.

If the Israeli like you said withdraw then Hamas just rebuild and then another October 7th happens and around we go again.

I also note that Israel helped distributed a million polio vaccines in the region and provided 2 millions tonnes of food. But no one talks about that and just glosses over it.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I agree. We all want the death and distruction to stop. We don't like civilian deaths or any deaths for that matter. All Hamas have to do is wave that white flag, disarm and disband and then the war is over.

If the Israeli like you said withdraw then Hamas just rebuild and then another October 7th happens and around we go again.

I also note that Israel helped distributed a million polio vaccines in the region and provided 2 millions tonnes of food. But no one talks about that and just glosses over it.

Do you think Israel would stop the settler attacks and incursions if Hamas disbanded/disarmed?

Israel was killing Palestinians, including civilians, in Gaza and the West Bank long before October 2023, and before Hamas even existed. Settlement expansion and settler violence in the West Bank were happening long before October 2023. Palestinians were being killed in the West Bank by Israeli forces and settlers every year, including in periods when there were no Hamas attacks happening. Gaza was also under blockade long before 7 October.

The suggestion that if Hamas disarms, the violence stops, is demonstrable bullshit.

No one is interested in flagrant propaganda from the IDF, yes - if you get to dismiss credible news sources as too biased to consider, you best believe that applies to whatever bullshit you're swallowing from the IDF. "ohh never mind us razing the place to the ground and killing tens of thousands, we did give out vaccines!" is not a serious argument.

Google Earth exposes devastation in Gaza with new updated images

Google Earth shows the unprecedented devastation in Gaza, illustrating the scale of the wreckage

www.independent.co.uk

 

[eaglesdare]

Do you think Israel would stop the settler attacks and incursions if Hamas disbanded/disarmed?

Israel was killing Palestinians, including civilians, in Gaza and the West Bank long before October 2023, and before Hamas even existed. Settlement expansion and settler violence in the West Bank were happening long before October 2023. Palestinians were being killed in the West Bank by Israeli forces and settlers every year, including in periods when there were no Hamas attacks happening. Gaza was also under blockade long before 7 October.

The suggestion that if Hamas disarms, the violence stops, is demonstrable bullshit.

No one is interested in flagrant propaganda from the IDF, yes - if you get to dismiss credible news sources as too biased to consider, you best believe that applies to whatever bullshit you're swallowing from the IDF. "ohh never mind us razing the place to the ground and killing tens of thousands, we did give out vaccines!" is not a serious argument.

Google Earth exposes devastation in Gaza with new updated images

Google Earth shows the unprecedented devastation in Gaza, illustrating the scale of the wreckage

www.independent.co.uk

Settler violence is wrong and should be prosecuted. But Hamas’s goal is Israels destruction (genocide) like we have told you many times. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Hamas took over and then they fired rockets for years leading up to October 7th.

If you recognise "Palestine" as a state then you also recognize Hamas as the government. Thus they invaded and started a war on October 7th. It can be ended if they surrender, disarm and disband.

The Google images that show unfortunate destruction are the result and the cost of starting a war. Very sad. Let's hope and pray that a lasting peace can be achieved somehow.

 

[silvertop]

What if you 100% don’t condemn the IDF or believe it’s a genocide ?

Try this.

100% condemn Oct 7 and Hamas later atrocities like human shields and stealing humanitarian aid.

ALSO

100% condemn Lecud cynically exploiting Israeli fears and the October 7 atrocities not just to retaliate against Hamas but then to ethnic cleanse ALL their borders with a reckless regard to innocent collateral deaths.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Settler violence is wrong and should be prosecuted. But Hamas’s goal is Israels destruction (genocide) like we have told you many times. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Hamas took over and then they fired rockets for years leading up to October 7th.

If you recognise "Palestine" as a state then you also recognize Hamas as the government. Thus they invaded and started a war on October 7th. It can be ended if they surrender, disarm and disband.

The Google images that show unfortunate destruction are the result and the cost of starting a war. Very sad. Let's hope and pray that a lasting peace can be achieved somehow.

No, they show the destruction caused by a military acting outside of it's commitments to international law and with total disregard for civilian life, to the extent that it's been very credibly accused of committing a genocide - pretending that level of destruction is somehow an inevitable consequence of October 7th is disingenuous, dumb and disgusting. When I talk about people justifying a genocide, that's exactly the sort of thing I mean. You describe it like some 'unfortunate' act of god that no one could control, when it is in fact an advanced military making very deliberate decisions.

This didn't start on October 7th, and there is nothing to support your assertion that if Hamas surrendered, this would end the expansion and violence. All of the evidence points to the contrary.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Try this.

100% condemn Oct 7 and Hamas later atrocities like human shields and stealing humanitarian aid.

ALSO

100% condemn Lecud cynically exploiting Israeli fears and the October 7 atrocities not just to retaliate against Hamas but then to ethnic cleanse ALL their borders with a reckless regard to innocent collateral deaths.

I'm very happy to condemn both of those things and both of these genocidal death-cults who show equal disregard for human life.

Anyone else..?

 

[eaglesdare]

No, they show the destruction caused by a military acting outside of it's commitments to international law and with total disregard for civilian life, to the extent that it's been very credibly accused of committing a genocide - pretending that level of destruction is somehow an inevitable consequence of October 7th is disingenuous, dumb and disgusting. When I talk about people justifying a genocide, that's exactly the sort of thing I mean. You describe it like some 'unfortunate' act of god that no one could control, when it is in fact an advanced military making very deliberate decisions.

This didn't start on October 7th, and there is nothing to support your assertion that if Hamas surrendered, this would end the expansion and violence. All of the evidence points to the contrary.

The destruction is tragic and unfortunate as I previously said and it's the direct result of Hamas starting the war on October 7th. Fighting from tunnels and civilian sites while refusing to surrender or free the hostages.

When you continue to call it “genocide” you ignore that they are targeting Hamas not civilians and that aid and warnings have continued.

What outcome do you want here? Israel to pull out and Hamas to regroup and another October 7th and then repeat?

How do you suggest a lasting peace? Shall we keep going around in circles?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

The destruction is tragic and unfortunate as I previously said and it's the direct result of Hamas starting the war on October 7th. Fighting from tunnels and civilian sites while refusing to surrender or free the hostages.

When you continue to call it “genocide” you ignore that they are targeting Hamas not civilians and that aid and warnings have continued.

What outcome do you want here? Israel to pull out and Hamas to regroup and another October 7th and then repeat?

How do you suggest a lasting peace? Shall we keep going around in circles?

Again, 'unfortunate' frames is as something outside of anyone's control, but it's not - it's a deliberate decision.

Have you considered sharing that high-level analysis with the UN and the International Association of Genocide Scholars? I'm sure they wouldn't have considered such nuance in their thinking when they concluded Israel was engaging in a genocide 🤣

What outcome do I want? An end to civilian death and suffering with accountability for those guilty of war crimes on all sides.

 

[eaglesdare]

Again, 'unfortunate' frames is as something outside of anyone's control, but it's not - it's a deliberate decision.

Have you considered sharing that high-level analysis with the UN and the International Association of Genocide Scholars? I'm sure they wouldn't have considered such nuance in their thinking when they concluded Israel was engaging in a genocide 🤣

What outcome do I want? An end to civilian death and suffering with accountability for those guilty of war crimes on all sides.

How? How does the war end?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

How? How does the war end?

Israel is perfectly capable of protecting and enforcing it's borders without the ongoing atrocities.

 

[eaglesdare]

Israel is perfectly capable of protecting and enforcing it's borders without the ongoing atrocities.

Not Hamas surrendering then? Hamas free to carry out another October 7th? And around around we go again in circles.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Not Hamas surrendering then? Hamas free to carry out another October 7th? And around around we go again in circles.

Israel protecting and enforcing it's borders would prevent another October 7th, as they could very easily have prevented the first.

I don't expect a terrorist organisation like Hamas to act in the interest of peace or morality. I do not accept that Israel are entitled to commit genocide because they face a terror threat.

 

[eaglesdare]

Israel protecting and enforcing it's borders would prevent another October 7th, as they could very easily have prevented the first.

I don't expect a terrorist organisation like Hamas to act in the interest of peace or morality. I do not accept that Israel are entitled to commit genocide because they face a terror threat.

If only protecting and enforcing our borders was so simple 😉

But if you know the full story of October 7th Hamas attacked a military base first and killed a number of military defence on the border before going to the festival.

The buck stops with Hamas. If they surrender then the war stops.

 

[Rossboss2908]

Or
when does it stop? When all the Jews have been forcibly moved and ethnically cleansed from their land?

It's "their" land to you. This is your problem, and it's people like you who will see that more deaths happen.

I expect that you are new to all of this, and you are just on the early big peak of the Dunning-Kruger scale.

 

[Mark B]

Of course true objectivity is a fantasy, but there is still a scale within that.

I also don't understand your initial point around 'passing the smell test' in context with the above - if the pro-Israel audience will disregard everything anyway, why should the documentary makers water down their message to try and appease them..?

The smell test is if something doesn't smell right, it probably isn't.

Watering down is just as bad as aggrandizing is, which is what the excessive collateral damage estimates are.

 

[cryrst]

Incorrect about what?

What is the stop button that Hamas hold?

Incorrect that pro Israel disregard anything and Hamas lay down their guns. Wars over ! That’s the stop button they hold. I see Gaza is being used to mention other issues with land though. Bit of deviation !

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Incorrect that pro Israel disregard anything and Hamas lay down their guns. Wars over ! That’s the stop button they hold. I see Gaza is being used to mention other issues with land though. Bit of deviation !

And if the terrorist organisation do indeed continue to act like a terrorist organisation... Israel is then justified in it's atrocities and genocide? I don't understand the argument.

 

[cryrst]

And if the terrorist organisation do indeed continue to act like a terrorist organisation... Israel is then justified in it's atrocities and genocide? I don't understand the argument.

What genocide as the population in Gaza is increasing. But fundamentally yes Israel can continue to hunt them down like the dogs they are. If people are so stupid and afraid you go and help them to understand they are meat for a Hamas grinder ! See how high you can bounce !