Immigration

[ASCPFC]

Yes, but you're seeking to remove or reduce blame aimed at the consequence, which doesn't make sense.

If unemployment leads to violent crime, we don't start arguing that violent crime is ok/understandable until unemployment drops.

You can very easily do both; address the underlying causations and hold people accountable for how they respond to them.

Otherwise you're effectively saying people have no agency and outcomes are inevitable once a cause exists... which clearly isn't true.

There is a constant, recurring argument that people are not to blame for crime. It's their circumstances etc. It's often brought up in court.
There is no admittance that immigration is causing anything negative at all. Just a bit of reality, rather than ideology might be a start.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

The people rioting absolutely deserve blame for their actions - I can't believe you're seriously suggesting otherwise.

If we accept a reality where if you feel wronged by something, you are not to blame if you go and engage in violent, criminal disorder against innocent individuals... that's utter madness.

There you go again. This is a question of who and what is ultimately responsible. You want to hide in the details of who did what in a riot. That is not the primary question.

This sudden rush of moral outrage is a typical leftist ploy to deflect from the real issue.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

There is a constant, recurring argument that people are not to blame for crime. It's their circumstances etc. It's often brought up in court.
There is no admittance that immigration is causing anything negative at all. Just a bit of reality, rather than ideology might be a start.

Sort of, mainly by people paid to get criminals off.

But in practice, if a wife cheats on her husband and he then violently assaults her... no one is suggesting that the husband shouldn't be blamed.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

There you go again. This is a question of who and what is ultimately responsible. You want to hide in the details of who did what in a riot. That is not the primary question.

This sudden rush of moral outrage is a typical leftist ploy to deflect from the real issue.

I've expressed zero moral outrage at all - you're arguing that people who do criminal things shouldn't be blamed if they feel like their cause is just.

That's just an absurdly illogical position.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

I didn't say immigration is always economically beneficial or that numbers can rise forever. I said reducing immigration to pre-1960s levels feels unrealistic and would likely come with major economic consequences.

The UK today isn't the UK of 1960 - we have an older population, lower birth rates, and entire sectors that are structurally reliant on migrant labour and migrant taxpayers. You can absolutely argue those sectors should adapt, but adaptation isn't free, and it certainly isn't quick. We already have failing public services and public sector vacancies in just about every area.

Even if net migration at very high levels has diminishing returns, that doesn't mean nearly eliminating it improves outcomes.

By the same logic, because unlimited taxation is unsustainable, we shouldn't bother taxing anyone.

What consequences?

Right now we have housing shortages, increasing unemployment and people who are not able to work for various reasons.
Immigrants will get old too. They will need state pensions. Who will pay for that?

Like I said, these are short term solutions in what is an unsustainable policy. Think about it.

The best policy would be to promote having 3 children per family for those who are here already. Then we can fix the future and stop insane cultural and heritage destruction.

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

Boris Johnson was the last advocate of (illegal) immigration. Ironically, he did more to stop it than anyone else.
It will take rioting on a national scale to stop it. Then all those rioting will be put in jail.
Confused.com ?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

What consequences?

Right now we have housing shortages, increasing unemployment and people who are not able to work for various reasons.
Immigrants will get old too. They will need state pensions. Who will pay for that?

Like I said, thee are short term solutions in what is an unsustainable policy. Think about it.

The best policy would be to promote having 3 children per family for those who are here already. Then we can fix the future and stop insane cultural and heritage destruction.

Less tax revenue, more public sector vacancies, worse public services etc. etc.

I completely agree that we should be introducing policies to encourage people to have more kids - that's a major way we can wean ourselves off our reliance on high immigration rates, but it takes time.

 

[Jordan555x]

But in practice, if a wife cheats on her husband and he then violently assaults her... no one is suggesting that the husband shouldn't be blamed.

How does that apply here, a bit of a false equivalence? There is not much you can do to prevent somebody from cheating on their other half. Absurd immigration policy and the consequences of that on the other hand.. That power lies with the ruling government, vote in a government that will make changes and you will find the consequences drastically reduces at least this type of rioting.

 

[georgenorman]

How do you define 'ridiculously high'? What's your benchmark?

Also, to reiterate, my point was made in response to a suggestion that people are being 'ignored' on immigration and the government is forcing through immigration policies, which is very evidently untrue.

My benchmark? Zero.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

I've expressed zero moral outrage at all - you're arguing that people who do criminal things shouldn't be blamed if they feel like their cause is just.

That's just an absurdly illogical position.

Where did I say that?

What I'm doing is heading off your attempt to deflect from the real issue. Mass immigration is killing this country.
What happened in Belfast over the last two nights is just a little preview of far worse to come in the future unless we change course.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

How does that apply here, a bit of a false equivalence? There is not much you can do to prevent somebody from cheating on their other half. Absurd immigration policy and the consequences of that on the other hand.. That power lies with the ruling government, vote in a government that will make changes and you will find the rioting drastically reduces at least this type of rioting.

He's the deflection king. Dan will be upset.

 

[Glazier#1]

You are missquoting me like the BBC does.

I said a "little protesting" not a "little rioting" protesting is fine and legal. However rioting and violence is not and should be condemned.

Apologies. It should have read " a little protesting". No need for paranoia; it was a genuine mistake, mate.

However, it's good to see your clarification. 🙂

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Less tax revenue, more public sector vacancies, worse public services etc. etc.

I completely agree that we should be introducing policies to encourage people to have more kids - that's a major way we can wean ourselves off our reliance on high immigration rates, but it takes time.

Have you been paying attention?

We have had massive immigration for many years. Have you seen any benefits? All I've seen is turmoil.

Of course, we need to fund the state, but I will repeat this one more time. The cost of an increasing population will be greater than the economic benefit. The only way to improve the economy is with stable costs and increased productivity. The increase in automation and AI will impact on that.

 

[Glazier#1]

I think that's an unrealistic ambition, and I don't think it would even come close to stacking up economically.

Not unrealistic to those who are militating for the return of first and second generation immigrants.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

How does that apply here, a bit of a false equivalence? There is not much you can do to prevent somebody from cheating on their other half. Absurd immigration policy and the consequences of that on the other hand.. That power lies with the ruling government, vote in a government that will make changes and you will find the consequences drastically reduces at least this type of rioting.

It's about extending the logic that 'we just need to deal with causes, not consequences'. I think people who engage in violent, criminal disorder should face consequences, irrespective of their 'cause'.

This government have made changes that have drastically reduced immigration.

 

[Jordan555x]

It's about extending the logic that 'we just need to deal with causes, not consequences'. I think people who engage in violent, criminal disorder should face consequences, irrespective of their 'cause'.

This government have made changes that have drastically reduced immigration.

Not enough I am afraid. You know this, I know this and so does everybody else.

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

I've expressed zero moral outrage at all - you're arguing that people who do criminal things shouldn't be blamed if they feel like their cause is just.

That's just an absurdly illogical position.

like criminal things such as arriving illegally on UK shores, then committing crimes such as rape, drug dealing, theft, then being put in prison at further expense to the tax-payer

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Where did I say that?

What I'm doing is heading off your attempt to deflect from the real issue. Mass immigration is killing this country.
What happened in Belfast over the last two nights is just a little preview of far worse to come in the future unless we change course.

Why the f*** do you think I care about 'deflecting' anything? Are you so self-important you think your incredibly low-level posts on a Crystal Palace forum are impacting the national conversation?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Not enough I am afraid. You know this, I know this and so does everybody else.

Why do so many of you speak like this 🤣

It's dropped by almost 50% in a year - that's incredibly steep. You know this as well as I do, and so does everyone else.

 

[Glazier#1]

Boris Johnson was the last advocate of (illegal) immigration. Ironically, he did more to stop it than anyone else.
It will take rioting on a national scale to stop it. Then all those rioting will be put in jail.
Confused.com ?

Is this tacitly calling for violent revolution for the cause, Forest?