Communism / Socialism

[Mark B]

Would we all be better off if we became China's rather than America's Lackey? Although they don't seem to be that much about the little red book anymore.
However, we'd get rid of all that Looney influence and resource industry wars where we end up with nothing anyway.

I always say China would keep us largely Capitalist otherwise who else would buy their crap? I feel the people they fear most are their own citizens. We'd be used to keep them in the factories. A few party representatives would nick some mansions. I'm not sure that would bother me too much.

Would they do a worse job of governing than what we have currently?

Perhaps it's our own systems we should be clearing up before we have a go at communists? Our corruption is clearly everywhere. Yet, we largely turn a blind eye. I'd say if we could get back to the basics of meritocracy in capitalism there would be more to say about it. These days the law is rigged against the clever and able and towards the corrupt and incompetent. In many fields.

I'm pretty sure capitalism has been corrupted so badly that there isn't the opportunity that there should be for the best to rise to the top in any natural fashion.

There is a mindset difference when it comes to US trade and China trade. US trade tends to focus on Win-Win where both parties are ok with the deal. China is a We Win - You Lose mindset where the goal is always to do not only what is best for the Middle Kingdom but what hurts the other nation and makes them subservient.

People are overreaching towards Trump's tariffs but if you look at the US trade imbalances around the world, his actions start to make sense. Take a look at the the differences in the trade imbalances between the UK and the US and UK and China. Is Trump an absolute A-Hole about it, yes, he is. But he isn't wrong when it comes to trade imbalances (He is wrong in some other areas though regarding the UK).

The Chinese want you to put your workers out of work and then force you to buy their products that they will then gain access to your systems. For example, just today it was announced that the Royal Navy K3 Scout surveillance drones were transmitting routine information back to China.

The Chinese also punish people who don't tow the government line. They put one of their highest profile billionaires (Jack Ma) in timeout for daring to talk against the government. And if you get a chance to visit them, they have some friendly minders who follow you during your trip. The Chinese cannot even admit how many people they have (They really have somewhere between 700-800 million).

As the good Mr. Churchill once said, "Capitalism is the worst economic system, except for all the others." Does it have its issues? Absolutely. Does it still work better then anywhere else? Absolutely. There is a reason why millions of people are trying to get into the US and UK every year and not a lot of people are rushing off the China.

 

[ASCPFC]

There is a mindset difference when it comes to US trade and China trade. US trade tends to focus on Win-Win where both parties are ok with the deal. China is a We Win - You Lose mindset where the goal is always to do not only what is best for the Middle Kingdom but what hurts the other nation and makes them subservient.

People are overreaching towards Trump's tariffs but if you look at the US trade imbalances around the world, his actions start to make sense. Take a look at the the differences in the trade imbalances between the UK and the US and UK and China. Is Trump an absolute A-Hole about it, yes, he is. But he isn't wrong when it comes to trade imbalances (He is wrong in some other areas though regarding the UK).

The Chinese want you to put your workers out of work and then force you to buy their products that they will then gain access to your systems. For example, just today it was announced that the Royal Navy K3 Scout surveillance drones were transmitting routine information back to China.

The Chinese also punish people who don't tow the government line. They put one of their highest profile billionaires (Jack Ma) in timeout for daring to talk against the government. And if you get a chance to visit them, they have some friendly minders who follow you during your trip. The Chinese cannot even admit how many people they have (They really have somewhere between 700-800 million).

As the good Mr. Churchill once said, "Capitalism is the worst economic system, except for all the others." Does it have its issues? Absolutely. Does it still work better then anywhere else? Absolutely. There is a reason why millions of people are trying to get into the US and UK every year and not a lot of people are rushing off the China.

It's always being pointed out that China's our enemy. They do this, they do that etc. Some of it even seems true.
However, how am I supposed to take that seriously when we have loads of people in prison for speech crime? We buy all of their rubbish endlessly - hence, by the way, they transmit information so our military even buy from them? We give them planning permission for a mega embassy which will likely include loads of intelligence gathering?
Frankly, we're clearly being played. I believe property is the most expensive in certain Chinese cities now. Above London and Paris, New York etc. Seems relatively desirable for some reason. The minders have long gone.

 

[Mark B]

It's always being pointed out that China's our enemy. They do this, they do that etc. Some of it even seems true.
However, how am I supposed to take that seriously when we have loads of people in prison for speech crime? We buy all of their rubbish endlessly - hence, by the way, they transmit information so our military even buy from them? We give them planning permission for a mega embassy which will likely include loads of intelligence gathering?
Frankly, we're clearly being played. I believe property is the most expensive in certain Chinese cities now. Above London and Paris, New York etc. Seems relatively desirable for some reason. The minders have long gone.

I'm not a fan of the word enemy personally, the only time someone is an enemy is when the bullets are getting ready to fly or are already flying. I prefer the term competitor as we are in economic and military competition with them right now, below armed conflict.

That is a unique aspect to the UK that I'm less familiar with. I know what I read about speech crimes but my personal experience and knowledge of countries where I lived doesn't give me the background to have an informed opinion of your lack of Freedom of Speech.

I think the issue in the case of the Royal Navy is that a subcontractor bought some Chinese stuff and pretended it was made somewhere else.

Yes, correct, their new embassy is all about spying on you. So are a significant number of members of the Chinese Students and Scholars Association who are currently at 90 different college branches in the UK.

Real Estate in China is a fascinating subject to study as it has been one the pillars of their economy for decades. The short of it is, their entire real estate system has been a ponzi scheme for years and now the bill is coming due as a significant portion of their workforce is retiring. It's bad, but it is going to get worse.

Most Expensive Global Markets (Per Square Foot)
Monaco: ~$5,250 per sq ft
Hong Kong: ~$3,720 per sq ft
New York City: ~$2,610 per sq ft
Geneva: ~$2,460 per sq ft
Tokyo: ~$2,330 per sq ft

I have a simply way of measuring countries, how easy it for you to leave. Can you pack up and leave without issue? Do you have to pay a huge fine to leave? Or are you barred from leaving. Countries that let you go are doing fine, those that force you to stay are usually not where you to want to live.

 

[McAhuna]

Would we all be better off if we became China's rather than America's Lackey? Although they don't seem to be that much about the little red book anymore.
However, we'd get rid of all that Looney influence and resource industry wars where we end up with nothing anyway.

I always say China would keep us largely Capitalist otherwise who else would buy their crap? I feel the people they fear most are their own citizens. We'd be used to keep them in the factories. A few party representatives would nick some mansions. I'm not sure that would bother me too much.

Would they do a worse job of governing than what we have currently?

Perhaps it's our own systems we should be clearing up before we have a go at communists? Our corruption is clearly everywhere. Yet, we largely turn a blind eye. I'd say if we could get back to the basics of meritocracy in capitalism there would be more to say about it. These days the law is rigged against the clever and able and towards the corrupt and incompetent. In many fields.

I'm pretty sure capitalism has been corrupted so badly that there isn't the opportunity that there should be for the best to rise to the top in any natural fashion.

China is not impartial to a pointless war to flex its muscles. Tibet was one victim, and they constantly threaten to make Taiwan another.

You are right about our system, but I am not convinced they are any better.

 

[PalazioVecchio]

These days the law is rigged against the clever and able and towards the corrupt and incompetent. In many fields.

Certainly yes in the Public Sector. Plus anybody that sells to the public sector.

 

[chris123]

Would we all be better off if we became China's rather than America's Lackey? Although they don't seem to be that much about the little red book anymore.
However, we'd get rid of all that Looney influence and resource industry wars where we end up with nothing anyway.

I always say China would keep us largely Capitalist otherwise who else would buy their crap? I feel the people they fear most are their own citizens. We'd be used to keep them in the factories. A few party representatives would nick some mansions. I'm not sure that would bother me too much.

Would they do a worse job of governing than what we have currently?

Perhaps it's our own systems we should be clearing up before we have a go at communists? Our corruption is clearly everywhere. Yet, we largely turn a blind eye. I'd say if we could get back to the basics of meritocracy in capitalism there would be more to say about it. These days the law is rigged against the clever and able and towards the corrupt and incompetent. In many fields.

I'm pretty sure capitalism has been corrupted so badly that there isn't the opportunity that there should be for the best to rise to the top in any natural fashion.

China's GDP per capita is about USD 14,000. 74th in the nominal GDP table per wiki.

 

[ASCPFC]

China's GDP per capita is about USD 14,000. 74th in the nominal GDP table per wiki.

So I guess they have loads of homeless people and crime then.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I believe in the principles of what communism is trying to objectively achieve (fairer society and items you list above) but also the principles of capitalism and acceptance of natural hierarchies and the idea that the smarter/harder you work the greater the reward.

As you say true communism will never work as its in direct contrast to human nature. If it's forced it results in mass death and destruction, if hypothetically it was achieved we would all die out due to lack of innovation or motivation to do anything.

However, unregulated capitalism, corporate greed/control and consumerism is, IMO, the greatest evil we are facing today. Globalism, encouraging and facilitating mass 3rd world immigration and destruction of nation states being prime examples.

Taking the ideas, principles and essence of what each attempts to achieve would create the best system.

Good post.

I think people are always far too black and white with this stuff - pretty much all of the most successful economies in the world are mixed models combining private enterprise and markets with varying degrees of regulation, taxation and state provision.

Unregulated capitalism doesn't work any better than communism would.

In answer to the OP, I think most on the left argue that we have allowed capitalism to become too unregulated, as you allude to in your post above, and we would prefer to see our already mixed-model economy reign this in.

There are very few people who are outright socialists/communists - most left-wing people I know are perfectly happy to recognise the obvious benefits of a capitalist society, and are perfectly happy for our society to be broadly structured as a capitalist one... we just think our current version of capitalism, the flaws of which you identify above, has gone too far.

The disagreement is really about where the boundaries should be. You can believe that capitalism is broadly the best economic system while also believing that it needs regulation, competition rules, worker protections, public services and redistribution to deal with the areas where markets don't produce particularly good outcomes.

 

[Mattconrov]

I'm not sure if this is relevant to a socialist v capitalism debate; but I find it ridiculous that individual people are allowed to own huge swathes of land. It's just not necessary.

That doesn't mean I want the extra space built on, but I don't think its right for one person to own that much natural space.

I agree with Saturn that unregulated capitalism could look like communism and it's probably going that way already. Communism and fascism have always looked particularly close brothers to me.

Most importantly for me there seems little insensitive to start and run your own business. The larger firms gained an even greater strangle hold on the markets when millions of small to medium businesses went under during "covid" and previous market crashes.

Look at the firms whose profits went up during and after that. Amazon and Royal mail to name a few. The large pub chain weatherspoons came out of it very well and continues to flourish. All at the cost of the small guy.

Private equity firms like Blackrock are being allowed to swallow up homes and rent them back to us. We may miss the good old days when our Cornish slum landlord was able to do that. Lol.

 

[chris123]

So I guess they have loads of homeless people and crime then.

Not sure on that, more looking at GDP as an indicator

 

[georgenorman]

Good post.

I think people are always far too black and white with this stuff - pretty much all of the most successful economies in the world are mixed models combining private enterprise and markets with varying degrees of regulation, taxation and state provision.

Unregulated capitalism doesn't work any better than communism would.

In answer to the OP, I think most on the left argue that we have allowed capitalism to become too unregulated, as you allude to in your post above, and we would prefer to see our already mixed-model economy reign this in.

There are very few people who are outright socialists/communists - most left-wing people I know are perfectly happy to recognise the obvious benefits of a capitalist society, and are perfectly happy for our society to be broadly structured as a capitalist one... we just think our current version of capitalism, the flaws of which you identify above, has gone too far.

The disagreement is really about where the boundaries should be. You can believe that capitalism is broadly the best economic system while also believing that it needs regulation, competition rules, worker protections, public services and redistribution to deal with the areas where markets don't produce particularly good outcomes.

How do you know that, where is Capitalism unregulated? When has it ever been unregulated in some ways? Communism is highly regulated but that doesn't make it work any better, although I suppose you could argue that Pol Pot's regime was unregulated - making it of course even more lunatic than the usual communist shambles.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

How do you know that, where is Capitalism unregulated? When has it ever been unregulated in some ways? Communism is highly regulated but that doesn't make it work any better, although I suppose you could argue that Pol Pot's regime was unregulated - making it of course even more lunatic than the usual communist shambles.

I don’t think we need to have seen capitalism 100% unregulated in order to make the argument.

We have so many examples of what happens when some markets are insufficiently regulated - let’s take the 2008 financial crash as an easy headline one, but there are plenty more.

The evidence doesn’t at all support the idea that allowing markets to completely regulate themselves produces better outcomes - markets have very predictable failures and it obviously makes sense to safeguard against them - that’s why all the most successful capitalist economies do so.

 

[steeleye20]

To HOL running imperialist dogs:-

From Miss Mitu

Chinese Honor Elite Regiment.

I know which side I'm on..........

😎

 

[georgenorman]

I don’t think we need to have seen capitalism 100% unregulated in order to make the argument.

We have so many examples of what happens when some markets are insufficiently regulated - let’s take the 2008 financial crash as an easy headline one, but there are plenty more.

The evidence doesn’t at all support the idea that allowing markets to completely regulate themselves produces better outcomes - markets have very predictable failures and it obviously makes sense to safeguard against them - that’s why all the most successful capitalist economies do so.

Capitalism works well most of the time, it basically people trying to better their lives. The current standards of living and general economic progress is largely due to Capitalism. Whereas Communism has been an abysmal failure causing untold numbers of deaths and general misery, characterised by people living under it trying to escape to Capitalist countries.

 

[Mattconrov]

Capitalism works well most of the time, it basically people trying to better their lives. The current standards of living and general economic progress is largely due to Capitalism. Whereas Communism has been an abysmal failure causing untold numbers of deaths and general misery, characterised by people living under it trying to escape to Capitalist countries.

I've mentioned it a few times already; but I strongly believe coperate capitalism is conflated with normal capitalism. The normal capitalism that allows people to escape poverty and build or join a business.

Coperate capitalism I mean by Amazon,
Tesco and a like. I appreciate in their beginnings they started out as small businesses. It's when they get too big then maybe regulation is required.

I agree 100 percent with you on the negative aspects of communism; which is pretty much all of it.

 

[Mattconrov]

One of our own, palace fan and Croydon boy Alistair Williams, with his take on Socialism.

He has a degree in history you know.

 

[georgenorman]

I've mentioned it a few times already; but I strongly believe coperate capitalism is conflated with normal capitalism. The normal capitalism that allows people to escape poverty and build or join a business.

Coperate capitalism I mean by Amazon,
Tesco and a like. I appreciate in their beginnings they started out as small businesses. It's when they get too big then maybe regulation is required.

I agree 100 percent with you on the negative aspects of communism; which is pretty much all of it.

Amazon's great, if I need something tomorrow without having to leave my house, I can get it. As for Tesco, I prefer Sainsburys, but all the supermarkets have to compete and the one that provides the best service in terms of quality, price etc will be the most successfull, the worst will probably go bankrupt - that's how Capitalism promotes quality and progress.
Whereas Communism and, to some extent Socialism, tends to destroy successfull businesses and murder successfull businessmen - leading to totally crap industry. China has of course realised this and adopted Capitalist economics whilst retaining their authoritarian control of their people - the only aspect of China that is really still Communist.

 

[Mattconrov]

Amazon's great, if I need something tomorrow without having to leave my house, I can get it. As for Tesco, I prefer Sainsburys, but all the supermarkets have to compete and the one that provides the best service in terms of quality, price etc will be the most successfull, the worst will probably go bankrupt - that's how Capitalism promotes quality and progress.
Whereas Communism and, to some extent Socialism, tends to destroy successfull businesses and murder successfull businessmen - leading to totally crap industry. China has of course realised this and adopted Capitalist economics whilst retaining their authoritarian control of their people - the only aspect of China that is really still Communist.

Yes, very good points on tesco and Sainsbury's competing with each other to provide a better price and service. Ultimately they are probably by default all be price fixing anyway.

when I talk about tesco and amazon I am talking about the local high street the local butcher being demolished by those organisations.

Unfortunately myself and most have choosen to have the easy and convenient life and not worry about the future.

So I'm not at all complaining about it, it's just something we will all have to experience as it gets a lot closer to absolute control.

As capitalism has grown over the years; its very nature is to grow even bigger. So we have had companies buying out other companies. So what you think is an independent is actually owned by a larger concern. Holland and Barratt was and maybe still owned by the carnenige group .

These organisations are covering all the bases. The idea of successful independent businesses is fast becoming an illusion.

 

[georgenorman]

Yes, very good points on tesco and Sainsbury's competing with each other to provide a better price and service. Ultimately they are probably by default all be price fixing anyway.

when I talk about tesco and amazon I am talking about the local high street the local butcher being demolished by those organisations.

Unfortunately myself and most have choosen to have the easy and convenient life and not worry about the future.

So I'm not at all complaining about it, it's just something we will all have to experience as it gets a lot closer to absolute control.

As capitalism has grown over the years; its very nature is to grow even bigger. So we have had companies buying out other companies. So what you think is an independent is actually owned by a larger concern. Holland and Barratt was and maybe still owned by the carnenige group .

These organisations are covering all the bases. The idea of successful independent businesses is fast becoming an illusion.

Amazon and Apple began in garages, Microsoft in a small office from virtually nothing. New organisations will continue to emerge from humble beginnings.

 

[Mattconrov]

Amazon and Apple began in garages, Microsoft in a small office from virtually nothing. New organisations will continue to emerge from humble beginnings.

I've pretty much said the same; I've also said that successfull businesses tend to get bought out/funded buy larger organisations. This certainly will cause problems with diversity of choice.

Just because a company has a different name, doesn't mean it isn't owned by another you may not know.

I say this as fact and mean no offence, as I'm sure you're aware the way things work.

I'm a private landlord. Landlord with a small l. I have one property. If I want to purchase more houses (which i don't) how do I compete with someone like Blackrock the private equity firm hovering up millions of properties?

So yes coperate capitalism worked for Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. Certainly check out the family tree on gates; but it won't help the majority of small businesses.