Communism / Socialism

[PalazioVecchio]

In the spirit of balance, open free-speech, & Eagle brotherly Love. Can i invite all our outspoken Lefties on HOL to set up a residency on this thread. Please help us dinosaur-thickies understand the halcyon paradise you will deliver, if given the tools.

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[Attilio1905]

I'm by no means a leftie, but a lot of Marx's critique of capitalism stands true. Where it all falls down is providing any viable alternative.

 

[PalazioVecchio]

I'm by no means a leftie, but a lot of Marx's critique of capitalism stands true. Where it all falls down is providing any viable alternative.

absolutely correct. When you work in a client-facing role and your employer earns, say, 10,000 quid charge-out for your hour of work. And then they pay you a pittance. Its awful and yet it happens a lot. The professions, Postgrad-academia, probably even Airline pilots.

Similarly when an apple farmer is paid almost nothing for his crop, and then the supermarkets charge top-dollar. Somebody has rigged the system.

Most ism's & ologies have major drawbacks.

Prior to Capitalism we all lived under Feudalism. Another nasty failed way of organising society. However, it is surprising the ways in which it was actually better than our World today. The 'number of hours peasants worked per year' , being one part of this. Affordable housing being another - village life was less of a rat-race than most big cities. A society without a formal police-force did have its own ways of dealing with criminality......often with better outcomes than our World today. Medieval Feudalism was probably more egalitarian than our World today. Kings couldn't buy a Ferrari. They often suffered the same medical problems as poor people, and died at the same age as poor people (unlike today).

And prior to Feudalism ? The evidence is that the Hunter-Gatherer lifestyle had a better diet with taller people. Even today, some of the hut-dwelling tribes of the Amazon are probably more free than you or I. No credit-score, no ID, no cameras watching them, no clocking-in for Work nor any Annual Performance Review. No State - hence no responsibility to support it financially nor militarily. No Japanese-style brutal education system. No money and hence no debt. They are even free to walk around naked, a dubious pleasure i doubt you could try around East Croydon concourse. Hunter-gatherers have always enjoyed greater fecundity than the sterile twenty-something Soya-Latte sipping trendies of Clapham. You trade having ten kids for a posh iPhone.

Hunter-Gathererism - ever since we were swinging from the trees.

Feudalism - circa 10,000 BC, Mesopotamia

Capitalism - Venice town square 1587....sitting at benches which were called Banki, Banks.


Communism ? any takers ?

Neolithic Revolution - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Banco della Piazza di Rialto - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ASCPFC]

I'm not totally against theoretical Communism. It's just that we'll obviously lack the morals, competence and balls to do it. In theory, there's nothing wrong with everyone having a house, a job, an education, healthcare etc. What more goes wrong is the incentive to do well mixed with the usual corruption that happens with any form of power.
No do bear in mind I will be the doctrinaire Commissar, of course. So I'll be fine.

 

[Mattconrov]

I know very little on this subject. I have found that people conflate coperate capitalism with other large successful businesses. This is then used to promote socialism as an answer sometimes.

The one thing I believe holding any decent system back from uniting people is the people themselves. Look at us on this forum, always disagreeing and getting angry, including myself. So I could never see a beautiful utopian system of us coming together. The government's and ourselves divide and rule to stop it.

Socialism seems to be something that is pushed on people as an answer. It may work to a certain degree in some places. I dunno.

Edit

I've heard people say communism hasn't worked before because it hasn't been done correctly. I think it probably has been done correctly and that's the problem in my opinion.

As I said earlier, you would need a united population. Take our country for instance. Lol

 

[Attilio1905]

I'm not totally against theoretical Communism. It's just that we'll obviously lack the morals, competence and balls to do it. In theory, there's nothing wrong with everyone having a house, a job, an education, healthcare etc.

I believe in the principles of what communism is trying to objectively achieve (fairer society and items you list above) but also the principles of capitalism and acceptance of natural hierarchies and the idea that the smarter/harder you work the greater the reward.

As you say true communism will never work as its in direct contrast to human nature. If it's forced it results in mass death and destruction, if hypothetically it was achieved we would all die out due to lack of innovation or motivation to do anything.

However, unregulated capitalism, corporate greed/control and consumerism is, IMO, the greatest evil we are facing today. Globalism, encouraging and facilitating mass 3rd world immigration and destruction of nation states being prime examples.

Taking the ideas, principles and essence of what each attempts to achieve would create the best system.

 

[Badger11]

I believe that Human Evolution and capitalism are in lock step.

When we were Hunter Gathers no doubt the best Hunters and bravest warriors got to the top of the tribe (evolution) . However others would have realised that you could also gain status and wealth (capitalism) by becoming:

Priest / advisor to the leader of the tribe
Wise woman / healer
Farmer
Craftsman, making weapons or jewellery or clothes.
etc.

And for this you would charge the rest of the tribe in food or whatever you needed.

I would argue that all the great achievements of our species are down to capitalism for all it's faults. It's difficult to think of any outstanding human achievements that Communism has produced apart from the odd scientist or novelist.

Twas ever thus, self interest is a powerful motivator.

 

[PalazioVecchio]

in the hunter-gatherer world, all food is free*. Just collect the berries from the trees or pluck the fish out of the river. In an abundant location, it could take you 5 minutes to get dinner. How many hours must a minimum-wage Brit work to feed the whole family from the menu below ?

https://www.mayfairchippy.com/_files/ugd/79148b_541dedb235154a6ea1ab9829a4fb3898.pdf

* regardless of your education levels, work ethic, or other 'dividers of people' in the Western World.

 

[McAhuna]

I would argue that all the great achievements of our species are down to capitalism for all it's faults. It's difficult to think of any outstanding human achievements that Communism has produced apart from the odd scientist or novelist.

First man in space (if you believe that sort of thing).
World's biggest economy (or at least will be in a decade or so).

Not that I am fan of communism, but Russia and China arguably had their most successful spells under communist regimes.

 

[Mattconrov]

What with the lack of job opportunities and ever spiraling population, we may get socialism through default.

if there are not enough jobs, then people will eventually be given a universal basic income to stay at home.

Our government has already done something similar during covid.

 

[McAhuna]

What with the lack of job opportunities and ever spiraling population, we may get socialism through default.

if there are not enough jobs, then people will eventually be given a universal basic income to stay at home.

Our government has already done something similar during covid.

Yes, very true. We call ourselves a 'liberal democracy', but basically copy a lot of Chinese initiatives anyway.

Digital ID, vaccine passport, 15-minute cities, facial recognition cameras, universal basic income.
1984 is creeping in whether we vote for it or not

 

[PalazioVecchio]

the woman's place is in the ......workplace. Meanwhile the State will raise your kids for you.

 

[McAhuna]

the woman's place is in the ......workplace. Meanwhile the State will raise your kids for you.

Well, that's been pushed in the west for the last 50 years.

Weirdly, when it was only the man who worked, families could easily afford a house. Now, with most families have two earners, housing has become unaffordabe. It's almost as if we were all conned and feminism was just about squeezing every last bit of resource out of us.