Israel v Hamas

[silvertop]

Yet on Oct 8 they were dancing in the streets and spending on the credit cards of dead jews

Something of a non sequitur so I will have another go (even though my question was actually directed to HK Owen).

What would you call what Israel did and continue to do to the Gazan population after 7 Oct?

 

[silvertop]

You have a weak argument because there are academics and legal experts who say there is no genocide in Gaza by any legal terms. A quick Google will give you their names.

Again, what would you call having about 1000 of yours killed and then killing around 60,000 of theirs by way of response?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

You have a weak argument because there are academics and legal experts who say there is no genocide in Gaza by any legal terms. A quick Google will give you their names.

Ok so now experts can be worth listening to - just trying to keep track of the hopping about.

I’ve tried googling as suggested with very limited success - feel free to share some sources as I did with you.

 

[Penge Eagle]

No. More towing the line with the US who in turn must appeal to their evangelical base.

I suspect Lefty Lammy has to speak with his fingers crossed behind his back.

If you think they support Israel just to appeal to the tiny number of evangelicals, then you are completely ignorant to world politics.

Countries support their allies as they have mutual enemies. You really think Iran and its proxies are friends of the West?

 

[DanH]

Ok so now experts can be worth listening to - just trying to keep track of the hopping about.

I’ve tried googling as suggested with very limited success - feel free to share some sources as I did with you.

They go to another school.

 

[ASCPFC]

They go to another school.

Frankly, mostly depends on who's funding them. Plus an eye on peers and fear of upcoming reviews or cancellation.
In fact, there's a huge culture of fear in academia these days.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Ok so now experts can be worth listening to - just trying to keep track of the hopping about.

I’ve tried googling as suggested with very limited success - feel free to share some sources as I did with you.

You have a stupid argument because every expert you quote, I could find another to say the opposite. Genocide is decided by due legal process.

But just for fun, here are some people whose OPINION is against calling it a genocide.

Eugene Kontorovich – Professor of Law, George Mason University (and international law expert)

Avi Bell – Professor of Law, University of San Diego & Bar Ilan University

Irwin Cotler – International human rights lawyer and former Canadian Justice Minister

Richard Goldstone – Former South African judge, lead author of the UN’s 2009 Gaza Report

Alan Dershowitz – Professor Emeritus, Harvard Law School

 

[Penge Eagle]

Again, what would you call having about 1000 of yours killed and then killing around 60,000 of theirs by way of response?

How about don't start a war you know you cannot win!

 

[CPFCSaturn]

You have a stupid argument because every expert you quote, I could find another to say the opposite. Genocide is decided by due legal process.

But just for fun, here are some people whose OPINION is against calling it a genocide.

Eugene Kontorovich – Professor of Law, George Mason University (and international law expert)

Avi Bell – Professor of Law, University of San Diego & Bar Ilan University

Irwin Cotler – International human rights lawyer and former Canadian Justice Minister

Richard Goldstone – Former South African judge, lead author of the UN’s 2009 Gaza Report

Alan Dershowitz – Professor Emeritus, Harvard Law School

And just pure coincidence every person you’ve named is Israeli and/or Jewish 🤣

 

[indianapalace85]

You have a stupid argument because every expert you quote, I could find another to say the opposite. Genocide is decided by due legal process.

But just for fun, here are some people whose OPINION is against calling it a genocide.

Eugene Kontorovich – Professor of Law, George Mason University (and international law expert)

Avi Bell – Professor of Law, University of San Diego & Bar Ilan University

Irwin Cotler – International human rights lawyer and former Canadian Justice Minister

Richard Goldstone – Former South African judge, lead author of the UN’s 2009 Gaza Report

Alan Dershowitz – Professor Emeritus, Harvard Law School

According to information gathered by the Tehran Times, Cotler is also a noble champion of the Mujahedin-e-Khalq Organization, a terror group that has the blood of over 18,000 Iranians on its hands and openly boasts about its plans to kill more people.

You mean this Irwin Cutler? Sounds like a delightful chap and someone that I'm sure loves ignoring genocides right in front of their eyes.

 

[silvertop]

If you think they support Israel just to appeal to the tiny number of evangelicals, then you are completely ignorant to world politics.

Countries support their allies as they have mutual enemies. You really think Iran and its proxies are friends of the West?

Circa 40% of the US population.

All voters (unlike the other 60%).

All believe that "God" gave Israel to the Jews.

The Republicans certainly could not exist as a party without that "tiny number" of supporters.

They cite Revelations as their reference point (I used to work with a bloke who was a member of a US evangelical church in Somerset and that is precisely what he did). How can you argue with that?

The influence of the Jewish lobby in the US cannot be overstated as the diaspora punch well above their weight in terms of influence, direct power etc. However, it is as much if not more politicians pandering to the deeply religious Christian vote that causes the one-sidedness of US support.

It is not Western allegiance. Trust me, if this bombing campaign was conducted by Britain or another tight ally with the US, there would not be this level of support. The US would have applied backroom pressure on us to cease fire after about 3 days.

With Israel they are given a free hand to bomb hospitals, schools, target residential blocks of flats at night, block medical and food aid and otherwise act as barbaric aggressors with absolute impunity, and effective immunity.

What is bizarre is that, if the people who post on here knew this was being conducted by e.g. New Zealand on Vanuatu, they would rightly condemn it. However, given it is Israel, their acts are ceaselessly defended and justified by most posters. I won't name names but I suspect one vehement defender is a Christian Zionist and another is diaspora; but the rest of you? These are acts that are absolutely beyond defence, yet you guys defend with such passion.

I am a person who can be convinced, but I have seen nothing in any of the posts to suggest anything but blind faith in the state of Israel or backing an ally come what may. That is OK to a point against the state of Iran. But it is not a good enough argument against largely defenseless, non-combatant Gazans.

Dropping a bomb on a civilian target with the knowledge you will kill about 100 people but with the intent to target only 3 is not an act of a country I want to be allied with. We need regime change but not just in Iran. Israelis deserve so much better than Licud.

 

[Penge Eagle]

And just pure coincidence every person you’ve named is Israeli and/or Jewish 🤣

There are Jewish and Israeli scholars on both sides of the argument.

 

[silvertop]

How about don't start a war you know you cannot win!

Diversion again.

Have another go.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Circa 40% of the US population.

All voters (unlike the other 60%).

All believe that "God" gave Israel to the Jews.

The Republicans certainly could not exist as a party without that "tiny number" of supporters.

They cite Revelations as their reference point (I used to work with a bloke who was a member of a US evangelical church in Somerset and that is precisely what he did). How can you argue with that?

The influence of the Jewish lobby in the US cannot be overstated as the diaspora punch well above their weight in terms of influence, direct power etc. However, it is as much if not more politicians pandering to the deeply religious Christian vote that causes the one-sidedness of US support.

It is not Western allegiance. Trust me, if this bombing campaign was conducted by Britain or another tight ally with the US, there would not be this level of support. The US would have applied backroom pressure on us to cease fire after about 3 days.

With Israel they are given a free hand to bomb hospitals, schools, target residential blocks of flats at night, block medical and food aid and otherwise act as barbaric aggressors with absolute impunity, and effective immunity.

What is bizarre is that, if the people who post on here knew this was being conducted by e.g. New Zealand on Vanuatu, they would rightly condemn it. However, given it is Israel, their acts are ceaselessly defended and justified by most posters. I won't name names but I suspect one vehement defender is a Christian Zionist and another is diaspora; but the rest of you? These are acts that are absolutely beyond defence, yet you guys defend with such passion.

I am a person who can be convinced, but I have seen nothing in any of the posts to suggest anything but blind faith in the state of Israel or backing an ally come what may. That is OK to a point against the state of Iran. But it is not a good enough argument against largely defenseless, non-combatant Gazans.

Dropping a bomb on a civilian target with the knowledge you will kill about 100 people but with the intent to target only 3 is not an act of a country I want to be allied with. We need regime change but not just in Iran. Israelis deserve so much better than Licud.

It's 25 per cent, not 40. You don't seem to be very good on facts.

As I have said a million times already, Hamas embeds itself in public buildings to gain sympathy from the useful idiots in the West. They don't care about the deaths of the civilians otherwise they would not do it or they would protect civilians in their tunnels. It's funny how Israel gets the blame but not Hamas for using human shields.

As I've also stated before, targeted airstrikes tends to produce fewer casualties than a ground invasion in urban warfare.

Your post is also ridiculous because you seem to expect any other state to act differently to Israel's response. You would not be allied with Israel whatever they did so please spare me.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Diversion again.

Have another go.

Er, what? War isn't a scorecard, it's about ending the threat. And not crying when you lose.

 

[indianapalace85]

It's 25 per cent, not 40. You don't seem to be very good on facts.

As I have said a million times already, Hamas embeds itself in public buildings to gain sympathy from the useful idiots in the West. They don't care about the deaths of the civilians otherwise they would not do it or they would protect civilians in their tunnels. It's funny how Israel gets the blame but not Hamas for using human shields.

As I've also stated before, targeted airstrikes tends to produce fewer casualties than a ground invasion in urban warfare.

Your post is also ridiculous because you seem to expect any other state to act differently to Israel's response. You would not be allied with Israel whatever they did so please spare me.

Your post is laced in naviety and an ideology that Netanyahu may as well have vocalised himself.

If you GENUINELY think Hamas is hiding in EVERY single school and Hospital is one thing.

If you then think destroying those buildings and killing endless lives, regardless of whether Hamas is there or not, is still justified than you may as well join the IDF.

Let me ask you this... if your family was in one of these hospitals and Hamas was supposedly hiding in there and Netanyahu ordered the hospital to be destroyed, would you have an issue with that?

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

It's 25 per cent, not 40. You don't seem to be very good on facts.

As I have said a million times already, Hamas embeds itself in public buildings to gain sympathy from the useful idiots in the West. They don't care about the deaths of the civilians otherwise they would not do it or they would protect civilians in their tunnels. It's funny how Israel gets the blame but not Hamas for using human shields.

As I've also stated before, targeted airstrikes tends to produce fewer casualties than a ground invasion in urban warfare.

Your post is also ridiculous because you seem to expect any other state to act differently to Israel's response. You would not be allied with Israel whatever they did so please spare me.

Arguing about whether what Israel is doing meets the legal threshold to be described, and consequently prosecuted as, genocide is a matter for when this mess is finally over.

In the meantime most people find it completely disproportionate to either the threat or as a response to the original attack. They see Israel as taking advantage of a situation to achieve a longer term, bigger ambition.

You though make no criticism of any kind of what they are doing.

So do you approve of everything, without qualification? Where do you draw the line? Only when the last Palestinian is either dead, ejected from Gaza and the West Bank, or subjugated into serving a Greater Israel? Or something else?

 

[indianapalace85]

Basically, in Netanyhau's eyes, October 7th was the best thing he could have hoped for.

A perfect excuse to wipe Palestians off the map.

The same tactic Putin is using against Ukraine and most wars in last 25 years that have been started under the BS pretence of weapons of mass destruction, which we all know was a load of lying crap, whereas the West just had their own agenda.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Your post is laced in naviety and an ideology that Netanyahu may as well have vocalised himself.

If you GENUINELY think Hamas is hiding in EVERY single school and Hospital is one thing.

If you then think destroying those buildings and killing endless lives, regardless of whether Hamas is there or not, is still justified than you may as well join the IDF.

Let me ask you this... if your family was in one of these hospitals and Hamas was supposedly hiding in there and Netanyahu ordered the hospital to be destroyed, would you have an issue with that?

Nobody said they were in every school and hospital but they have been in many and it's a well-known strategy. I would be furious if Hamas used my family members as human shields! The blame starts with those who weaponise humans.

Hamas hiding in hospitals is a war crime. If Israel targets the hospitals in a measured way, it's perfectly legal.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Arguing about whether what Israel is doing meets the legal threshold to be described, and consequently prosecuted as, genocide is a matter for when this mess is finally over.

In the meantime most people find it completely disproportionate to either the threat or as a response to the original attack. They see Israel as taking advantage of a situation to achieve a longer term, bigger ambition.

You though make no criticism of any kind of what they are doing.

So do you approve of everything, without qualification? Where do you draw the line? Only when the last Palestinian is either dead, ejected from Gaza and the West Bank, or subjugated into serving a Greater Israel? Or something else?

This is full of hyperbole and conspiracy theories.