Israel v Iran

[Stirlingsays]

Israel doesn’t hide weapons or terrorists in hospitals. If you think intel from Gaza doesn't get fed before a strike it’s nonsense.

Israel do plenty of unethical things, this 'goodie v baddie' stuff is for the birds.

You have a side, I get that....but the whole point of a war is that your enemy's innocents are far less important than your own people's. No one likes to admit the truth but whole cities are reduced to rubble in favour of risking large casualties of your own people taking them house to house.....that's literally babies dying, sometimes slowly, under rubble......Unless there's a strong reason not to do that It's been true of all militaries capable of doing it since it became possible.

Concern for civilian casualties is purely media fodder for normies to feel good while having their breakfast.

And all, and I mean all militaries under attack will hide their stuff wherever they think works if they consider it under threat.

 

[silvertop]

No civilised people would hide bombs or scum terrorists in a hospital.

So you accept that the state of Israel occupies the same moral plane as Hamas?

 

[silvertop]

I'm not so sure about that. In the cities and towns most Iranians are actually western looking so yes they would like a modern Islamic country like Morocco or Tunisia.

However in the countryside and outside of the major cities the locals are far more in favour of the country strict Islamic regime.

It's quite likely that this could lead to civil war.

Data is highly unreliable but, like Israel, they only have about a one in five mandate for this.

The trouble is there is no unifying core to attract the no-supporters ( I do not say opposition as there is no effective one) to replace the regime; and no one has the capacity right now as they are fleeing for their lives.

Personally, I would like the more moderate side of Iranian politics to slowly take over, with the theocratic 79-ers being slowly and sensibly fazed out; but I fear the more likely scenario is a bloody overthrow of some sort and even worse replacements.

 

[silvertop]

And you know this how?

Because Netanyahu and others of his regime have given press releases on the subject.

Many.

It is not that difficult to look them up.

 

[silvertop]

May well be the case, the Iranian diaspora I know are certainly urban and educated

Civil war needs arms, if the IRG manage to melt away into the mountains with their weapons then yes, could go on for years.

However, Iran are top of the terror funding pyramid so can't see any meaningful outside assistance to them

That is a half truth that has been pedaled for so many years it is now accepted as solid fact.

It is a US/Israel sweeping statement founded on the fact that they support terrorism against Israel. No arguments there.

They are also one arm of the schism/proxy war with the Saudis in Yemen; but you could argue all day as to whether that is "terrorism" as we understand it.

Otherwise, when pressed, those who repeat this mantra struggle to find any other terrorism cause they currently or even recently support (e.g. please don't mention 1979). Certainly nothing that might impact the West. All those atrocities in the modern age have originated from our close friends and allies of the major Sunni nations like UAE or Saudi Arabia.

Let me be clear. The current Iranian regime are brutal, autocratic, c***s. But they are enemies of Israel and (technically) the USA. They are only our enemies by association but offer no real risk to us.

 

[silvertop]

Israel do plenty of unethical things, this 'goodie v baddie' stuff is for the birds.

You have a side, I get that....but the whole point of a war is that your enemy's innocents are far less important than your own people's. No one likes to admit the truth but whole cities are reduced to rubble in favour of risking large casualties of your own people taking them house to house.....that's literally babies dying, sometimes slowly, under rubble......Unless there's a strong reason not to do that It's been true of all militaries capable of doing it since it became possible.

Concern for civilian casualties is purely media fodder for normies to feel good while having their breakfast.

And all, and I mean all militaries under attack will hide their stuff wherever they think works if they consider it under threat.

Myopia is a problem I have with many of the posts on here. Wholly on one side. Unable to consider the other in any meaningful way. And if you criticize Israel, you can only be pro Hamas or Iran.

It is like arguing with a simple child.

 

[eaglesdare]

No civilised people would hide bombs or scum terrorists in a hospital.

Remember when the BBC falsely reported that Israel had bombed a hospital there was absolute outrage. Especially among the Hamas supporters here. (Turned out it was Hamas own missiles)

Now Iran have bombed a Israeli hospital and........

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Myopia is a problem I have with many of the posts on here. Wholly on one side. Unable to consider the other in any meaningful way. And if you criticize Israel, you can only be pro Hamas or Iran.

It is like arguing with a simple child.

Whereas you argue without seeing the bigger picture.

To continue to grade or compare the level of barbarity for various atrocities is totally pointless.
Your middle class morality doesn't apply in the Middle East.

Israel are our allies in that region. That is all you need to know. You don't have to like it or them, but just understand what that means.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

The recent posts on both here and the other Israel thread that seek to claim that morality and humanity are some sort of childish concepts are so misplaced.

The recent conflation of military action with atrocities and war crimes is a very deliberate blurring of the lines, and incredibly it seems to be working.

The foundational pledge of the UN in 1945 was not some hippies singing kumbaya - it was the fruit born of a world that knew the realities of unrestricted warfare and of treating human life as expendable.

We appear to have forgotten those lessons.

 

[ASCPFC]

The recent posts on both here and the other Israel thread that seek to claim that morality and humanity are some sort of childish concepts are so misplaced.

The recent conflation of military action with atrocities and war crimes is a very deliberate blurring of the lines, and incredibly it seems to be working.

The foundational pledge of the UN in 1945 was not some hippies singing kumbaya - it was the fruit born of a world that knew the realities of unrestricted warfare and of treating human life as expendable.

We appear to have forgotten those lessons.

The United Nations is probably on a par with the League of Nations, or less effective.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

The United Nations is probably on a par with the League of Nations, or less effective.

Yeah all of the humanitarian aid, peacekeeping missions, human rights development and work on eradicating deadly diseases which combined have saved however many millions of lives are clearly a waste of time.

 

[beak]

Iran seem to be intent on painting themselves into a corner and Trump not wishing to be a"war" president wants them to climb down and the threat of attacking them in up to two weeks is his typical way of starting "the deal".Now look out for the fudge.

 

[ASCPFC]

Yeah all of the humanitarian aid, peacekeeping missions, human rights development and work on eradicating deadly diseases which combined have saved however many millions of lives are clearly a waste of time.

Put your trust in them if you like.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Yeah all of the humanitarian aid, peacekeeping missions, human rights development and work on eradicating deadly diseases which combined have saved however many millions of lives are clearly a waste of time.

If you'll forgive the analogy. That is like expecting someone to observe the Queensberry Rules in a street fight when their life is in danger.

This is a no holds bared conflict between fanatical people. From the viewpoint of the West, what motivation would there be to stop Israel attacking our sworn enemy and do the whole world a favour?

You can go all Joan Baez on us all you like, but there is a grim reality here that cannot be avoided.

I don't like it any more than you.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

If you'll forgive the analogy. That is like expecting someone to observe the Queensberry Rules in a street fight when their life is in danger.

This is a no holds bared conflict between fanatical people. From the viewpoint of the West, what motivation would there be to stop Israel attacking our sworn enemy and do the whole world a favour?

You can go all Joan Baez on us all you like, but there is a grim reality here that cannot be avoided.

I don't like it any more than you.

Israel would nuke Iran off the map if it were no holds barred - so clearly there is an acceptance that some things are beyond the pale and some rules can be observed, even in conflict.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Israel would nuke Iran off the map if it were no holds barred - so clearly there is an acceptance that some things are beyond the pale and some rules can be observed, even in conflict.

That wouldn't be a strategically good move. Israel need to keep their allies on side.

Nukes in that situation would only be an option to avoid total defeat. The US would never let it get to that point.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

That wouldn't be a strategically good move. Israel need to keep their allies on side.

Nukes in that situation would only be an option to avoid total defeat. The US would never let it get to that point.

And morally a nuke would be intolerable to their allies, I agree.

And that demonstrates precisely that where we draw our lines on morality can have real impacts on how warfare is conducted and what is deemed acceptable.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Myopia is a problem I have with many of the posts on here. Wholly on one side. Unable to consider the other in any meaningful way. And if you criticize Israel, you can only be pro Hamas or Iran.

It is like arguing with a simple child.

Well Cryrst is on my side of the fence so I'm not going to call him a child.

Emotions are high and people have sides.

I just think that the nature of Israel/Palestine is killing people for land and resources and there are no good guys and bad guys, only winners and losers.

Loss breeds loss....Hatred breeds hatred....It's as ancient as war itself....as family vendettas itself.

There's no nice way and no fair way this ends.

Whatever way it ends everyone's hands are soaked in blood.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Yeah all of the humanitarian aid, peacekeeping missions, human rights development and work on eradicating deadly diseases which combined have saved however many millions of lives are clearly a waste of time.

True, but you know he isn't talking about that.

He's referring to its effectiveness in stopping wars.....which was what the league was meant to do as well.

I agree with you that the UN does a reasonable job on the above criteria, just not on wars.....because essentially to do that you'd need a world government....and that's communism.

So feck that.....but maybe certain things can be agreed on....because unless there is AI will probably kill us all way before climate change ever could.

I don't know...just spit balling.

At the moment all you see is escalation from all the usual suspects.

 

[chris123]

Well Cryrst is on my side of the fence so I'm not going to call him a child.

Emotions are high and people have sides.

I just think that the nature of Israel/Palestine is killing people for land and resources and there are no good guys and bad guys, only winners and losers.

Loss breeds loss....Hatred breeds hatred....It's as ancient as war itself....as family vendettas itself.

There's no nice way and no fair way this ends.

Whatever way it ends everyone's hands are soaked in blood.

Iran runs out of money?