Israel v Hamas

[Glazier#1]

You are challenging the scepticism of these reports and implying the surgeons are trustworthy.

Nope. Genuine question.
You see. Trying be as fair as possible.

 

[ASCPFC]

Yeah I don't disagree that there are a range of explanations possible - I think accidents/stray fire is not very believable given the descriptions of the wounds, but sure, happy to agree there is room for speculation on the reasons.

Why don't you think the bit in bold is likely?

A couple of reasons: soldiers don't tend to react well if given such orders. Plus, it would be hard to keep any such orders secret if soldiers were aware of it.
Soldiers tend to be just people with guns. Not generally monsters willing to kill anyone and everything.
Soldiers would also be bound to disobey orders that contravene human rights laws - where possible. Although I will say - not if that's going to get them or their mates killed. Obviously, can depend on the individual. There can be a small rogue element.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

A couple of reasons: soldiers don't tend to react well if given such orders. Plus, it would be hard to keep any such orders secret if soldiers were aware of it.
Soldiers tend to be just people with guns. Not generally monsters willing to kill anyone and everything.
Soldiers would also be bound to disobey orders that contravene human rights laws - where possible. Although I will say - not if that's going to get them or their mates killed. Obviously, can depend on the individual. There can be a small rogue element.

Fair points.

I think both sides of this conflict barely see the other as human, and I'd argue there is far less morality amongst them than other armed forces.

I think Israel have shown their disregard for humans rights laws many times over, so I don't think this would impact the IDF's conduct at all.

 

[HKOwen]

Israel soldier jailed for abusing Palestinian detainees from Gaza

Israel's military says he punched detainees and used his weapon while they were handcuffed and blindfolded.

www.bbc.com

Only one example but it at least demonstrates unacceptable actions are not totally ignored.

A bunch of extremist settlers protests the prosecution but it went through

I doubt Hamas prosecuted any of the participants of October 7th

 

[steeleye20]

Kim Malthouse ex tory minister, I applaud you:-

Lammy and Starmer have no backbone and need to develop a human conscience.

😎

 

[silvertop]

Thanks for a considered post with some data and less moral grandstanding. You're right that war brings human suffering and the loss of life, especially children which is devastating.

You are also correct that Israel restricts access but Hamas has a long track record of manipulating and even killing Palestinian reporters who don't toe the line. I'll say it louder to those at the back... Every camera or story goes through the Hamas filter.

The UN doesn't verify Gaza casualty figures – just repeats those from the Hamas Health Ministry. It's not verified UN data. In the 2014 conflict, analysis by the Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center reported that a higher percentage of the dead were militants after Hamas had initially claimed almost all were civilians.

No number is "acceptable" but there is a difference between collateral damage and war crimes. There would be less civilian deaths if Hamas did not embed themselves in schools, homes and hospitals. Hamas openly admits it doesn't build bomb shelters for the people and its hundreds of miles of underground tunnels are not to be used to protect civilians! A couple of war crimes right there.

Yeah, bad on both sides. Usually how war works. As is the control of information.

However, I do not buy into two aspects of recent Israel faux outrage.

Firstly, Hamas use children and patients as human shields. I have no clear knowledge of whether they do. Or whether they don't. However, on this, you are relying on Israel saying so.

But that is not the issue. The issue is that Israel holds itself up as a beacon of civilized, western democracy in a sea of authoritarianism. And in many ways it is and, like us with Northern Ireland, finds the balance between upholding those values and defending itself very difficult. However, no Western democracy would bomb a hospital or school to get to the terrorists lurking within it. A ground troop assault, maybe. But aerial bombing, never.

Secondly, Israel whines that they are being singled out in a world where, for instance, Sudan is also committing genocide in their barely reported and all-but forgotten conflict with the South. That assertion is, of course, true. One reason is that internecine conflict does not have the pan-global consequences like that conflict in Gaza.

But once again, not the issue. The issue is where Israel holds itself. Is it really now holding itself to the level of f*****g Sudan? I mean, really? Is that really the bar now set by Benny's government?

 

[silvertop]

A couple of reasons: soldiers don't tend to react well if given such orders. Plus, it would be hard to keep any such orders secret if soldiers were aware of it.
Soldiers tend to be just people with guns. Not generally monsters willing to kill anyone and everything.
Soldiers would also be bound to disobey orders that contravene human rights laws - where possible. Although I will say - not if that's going to get them or their mates killed. Obviously, can depend on the individual. There can be a small rogue element.

All Israelis have to undertake 3 years national service. Afterwards, the group tend to go on an extended break together somewhere relaxing. I met such a group in Greece. Just after the Intifada where they were mobilized.

"If a kid is shouting at us, we tell him to "f**k off". If he throws a stone, we shoot him."

It was relayed to me in a chillingly matter of fact way.

They seemed to view Palestinians as, essentially, animals and obstacles to Israel. Any who get angry they saw as rabid dogs who need putting down. I got no impression they viewed them as human at all.

I have 100% certainty that if a Palestinian child is carrying anything they view as a weapon (e.g. a brick from the rubble), they will shoot him dead. And I have equal certainty that many children have been killed in this way.

 

[ASCPFC]

All Israelis have to undertake 3 years national service. Afterwards, the group tend to go on an extended break together somewhere relaxing. I met such a group in Greece. Just after the Intifada where they were mobilized.

"If a kid is shouting at us, we tell him to "f**k off". If he throws a stone, we shoot him."

It was relayed to me in a chillingly matter of fact way.

They seemed to view Palestinians as, essentially, animals and obstacles to Israel. Any who get angry they saw as rabid dogs who need putting down. I got no impression they viewed them as human at all.

I have 100% certainty that if a Palestinian child is carrying anything they view as a weapon (e.g. a brick from the rubble), they will shoot him dead. And I have equal certainty that many children have been killed in this way.

To be fair, I know all about it. This is one group. It doesn't extend to all Israeli soldiers. There were soldiers in the British army who hated the Irish. Not many of them just blindly shot people. Although a couple did. These things happen amongst any group of people. Any section of the population. You get bad people. You get radical people. They don't tend to be the majority.
I can say with some certainty that the main things soldiers do is stay alive.
Young people mouthing off about killing kids is not the same as having a child in your sights and pulling the trigger. It's not such a game then.

 

[cryrst]

Yes, if I accept reports from operating surgeons of suspected sniper fire at and on the scene, I stated, to be balanced, that it could have come from either or both sides, which is certain.

Now, what else am I very certain about?

Well the IDF use different ammo.
The surgeons should show this as it will prove who shot who. Why don’t they do this.

 

[steeleye20]

'Israel has valid longstanding historical ties to the land'.

No, legally it doesn't.....

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Well the IDF use different ammo.
The surgeons should show this as it will prove who shot who. Why don’t they do this.

Because they're Hamas, obviously.

 

[silvertop]

Because they're Hamas, obviously.

Or, more obviously, because they are severely resource starved (by Israel) and can barely keep up with the constant flow of patients, let alone run an effective pathology/CSI team.

 

[silvertop]

To be fair, I know all about it. This is one group. It doesn't extend to all Israeli soldiers. There were soldiers in the British army who hated the Irish. Not many of them just blindly shot people. Although a couple did. These things happen amongst any group of people. Any section of the population. You get bad people. You get radical people. They don't tend to be the majority.
I can say with some certainty that the main things soldiers do is stay alive.
Young people mouthing off about killing kids is not the same as having a child in your sights and pulling the trigger. It's not such a game then.

Very very different.

British soldiers tend to come from poorer areas of the UK. Thus, they are brought up with kids (or may be those kids) whose name is O'Something and whose parents may still speak with Irish accents. In 1981, 5% of the British population was first generation Irish; but a much larger share of our white population has some Irish in them. I have 1/8th. Everyone has an Irish friend and if you ask the English who their favourite foreigner is, likely as not they will say the Irish. We have the experience of a century and a half of assimilation. British soldiers hated people getting in their face and developed a mindset to demonize the locals to justify their presence, but at the back of their mind they must have known they were fighting themselves.

Not so Israelis and Palestinians. It is the Jewish state and there are no Palestinian Jews. There is no assimilation and the two do not live in any harmony. Even where they share geography, they do not share lives. Israel is created on the premise that it is a land given to the Jews by God. And the Torah is full of Jews massacring non Jews with divine support.

You are not comparing apples.

And Israeli soldiers did use live ammunition on children throwing stones during the intifada. It's a fact. A lot more than the 26 we shot in 1972.

 

[HKOwen]

Arabs are about 20% plus of Israeli citizens

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Or, more obviously, because they are severely resource starved (by Israel) and can barely keep up with the constant flow of patients, let alone run an effective pathology/CSI team.

My response was sarcastic.

 

[HKOwen]

Very very different.

British soldiers tend to come from poorer areas of the UK. Thus, they are brought up with kids (or may be those kids) whose name is O'Something and whose parents may still speak with Irish accents. In 1981, 5% of the British population was first generation Irish; but a much larger share of our white population has some Irish in them. I have 1/8th. Everyone has an Irish friend and if you ask the English who their favourite foreigner is, likely as not they will say the Irish. We have the experience of a century and a half of assimilation. British soldiers hated people getting in their face and developed a mindset to demonize the locals to justify their presence, but at the back of their mind they must have known they were fighting themselves.

Not so Israelis and Palestinians. It is the Jewish state and there are no Palestinian Jews. There is no assimilation and the two do not live in any harmony. Even where they share geography, they do not share lives. Israel is created on the premise that it is a land given to the Jews by God. And the Torah is full of Jews massacring non Jews with divine support.

You are not comparing apples.

And Israeli soldiers did use live ammunition on children throwing stones during the intifada. It's a fact. A lot more than the 26 we shot in 1972.

Am sure that many British soldiers wondered why they shot themselves or blew themselves up

 

[ASCPFC]

Very very different.

British soldiers tend to come from poorer areas of the UK. Thus, they are brought up with kids (or may be those kids) whose name is O'Something and whose parents may still speak with Irish accents. In 1981, 5% of the British population was first generation Irish; but a much larger share of our white population has some Irish in them. I have 1/8th. Everyone has an Irish friend and if you ask the English who their favourite foreigner is, likely as not they will say the Irish. We have the experience of a century and a half of assimilation. British soldiers hated people getting in their face and developed a mindset to demonize the locals to justify their presence, but at the back of their mind they must have known they were fighting themselves.

Not so Israelis and Palestinians. It is the Jewish state and there are no Palestinian Jews. There is no assimilation and the two do not live in any harmony. Even where they share geography, they do not share lives. Israel is created on the premise that it is a land given to the Jews by God. And the Torah is full of Jews massacring non Jews with divine support.

You are not comparing apples.

And Israeli soldiers did use live ammunition on children throwing stones during the intifada. It's a fact. A lot more than the 26 we shot in 1972.

I understand the Zionist perspective but also know full well that not all Israeli's and Jews are Zionists. I have relations and friends who are Jewish Israeli. Half totally oppose the war, half agree with it. All have to do their national service, it's not like they're all big Nethanyahu fans dying to kill kids. That's pretty crazy to be honest. But I would suggest that some in the forces are radically Zionist. Just like some are radically Islamic in Palestine.

If you look into Bloody Sunday, for example, you'll find it was one particular group of three (?) soldiers who did all the killing, even only one of them mainly. They hated Paddy for whatever reason, as happens. So I wouldn't discount completely what you're saying but am more trying to just balance with the general reality of these things. There's far more mixture of the population in Israel than you're suggesting. For a start, I believe the largest ethnic group in Israel are Arab Jews - and they have a tendency to relate to the Palestinians. Again though, no group is going to just point one way or another. Large areas of Israel are mixed. But it now looks increasingly difficult for that to be the way forward.

I think people are also forgetting that the current Israeli government has done everything it can, every deal possible to stay in power. They're hard line, but the more liberal parties are very close the whole time - otherwise why the desperate clinging to power? It's clear that a large part of the Israeli population doesn't support Nethanyahu and are unlikely to be big Zionists. I don't see them targeting children personally. Even if ordered.

One of the points is - would you? Would I? We're still humans. And it takes a special kind of human to do things like that.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Yeah, bad on both sides. Usually how war works. As is the control of information.

However, I do not buy into two aspects of recent Israel faux outrage.

Firstly, Hamas use children and patients as human shields. I have no clear knowledge of whether they do. Or whether they don't. However, on this, you are relying on Israel saying so.

But that is not the issue. The issue is that Israel holds itself up as a beacon of civilized, western democracy in a sea of authoritarianism. And in many ways it is and, like us with Northern Ireland, finds the balance between upholding those values and defending itself very difficult. However, no Western democracy would bomb a hospital or school to get to the terrorists lurking within it. A ground troop assault, maybe. But aerial bombing, never.

Secondly, Israel whines that they are being singled out in a world where, for instance, Sudan is also committing genocide in their barely reported and all-but forgotten conflict with the South. That assertion is, of course, true. One reason is that internecine conflict does not have the pan-global consequences like that conflict in Gaza.

But once again, not the issue. The issue is where Israel holds itself. Is it really now holding itself to the level of f*****g Sudan? I mean, really? Is that really the bar now set by Benny's government?

You admit you have "no clear knowledge" whether Hamas uses human shields because information is manipulated in a war. But go on to cast doubt on Israel by emphasising uncertainty on their claims - "Israel faux outrage" and "you are relying on Israel".

Your idea that no Western democracy would bomb a hospital or school is historically false. The UK and US did it in World War 2 and NATO did so in the Balkans and Afghanistan. If Hamas is operating from schools and hospitals – as both UN reports and independent journalists have accepted – what are Israel supposed to do?

Ground assaults are not necessarily less deadly than airstrikes and often result in higher casualties for both soldiers and civilians due to the close nature of the fighting.

You say that Sudan's atrocities are barely reported. That is the point – it's the double standard. Almost no other country in the world is scrutinised as much as Israel even when doing worse!

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Not all Palestinians are Hamas, to conflate then shows a base ignorance of the situation in Gaza, the West Bank, other Palestinian and Arab enclaves within Israel , and the State of Israel.

The State of Israel and The Palestinian Authority have mutually recognised the other's right to exist since the Oslo Accords.

Not all Germans were Nazis. The innocent suffer in war.

It is debatable whether the victims could be described as collateral damage, since bombing civilian areas is certain to kill indiscriminately.

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

Agree on a lot of things with Penge in his recent post. the only thing I will say is that pressing a button to launch a missile , or drop a bomb, on an area gives an increased amount of detachment. Much like starvation, they are imprecise weapons. And as such, civilians and hostages are at much increased rick