Sage in or out

[ASCPFC]

If poor suffering Sage,is given tonight's game together with the Spurs and Liverpool games to redeem himself,all very unfair as almost certain defeats particularly in the League,where it really counts,are inevitable.Certainly,a dead man walking.

It's not unfair, why certain defeats? If we had been playing better then they wouldn't be certain. They look odds on at present due to tactical naievity, lack of effort and poor performances.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

This idea of having a 'defensive coach' is interesting.

Firstly, in our case, I find it hard to believe that Paddy is tasked with organising the defence as a discreet job. For one thing, he was on the staff under Glasner when we had a very different, far more defensively coherent, interpretation of the 343 system. If how we defended was up to him then why would it have changed so much from one manager to the next even though the system remains the same on paper?

More to the point, even if a particular coach or assistant is tasked with focusing on defending, he can only do so much if the possession/attacking sides of the game are not up to him. If the players are asked to get forward in a way that places half of them on the 'wrong' side of the ball when we lose it, then your job as a defensive coach is far harder. You are probably working more on high-risk moments and damage-limitation rather than actual coherent, reliable defensive structure.

Plus, most 'managers' are nothing of the sort nowadays. They don't handle contracts, sales, and signings, or set long term direction. They just work with the players they have. In other words, they are a head-coach. I find it hard to believe that the version of 343 we have seen so far is anything other than Sage's take on it. It is certainly his responsibility at least.

Under Glasner we defended in a deep 541 shape. Sarr and Eze/Pino would drop back to defend as part of a bank of 4 midfielders. Mateta would sit in front of the centre mids, so we had all 11 behind the ball with about 25/30 yards between the font player and the defenders. This reduced the distance the centre mids had to cover, and allowed Mitchell and Munoz to defend as fullbacks (i.e. to mark the opposition winger). That in turn allowed the three centre backs to play narrow, close to each other. That leaves far less space (in our half, anyway).

Under Sage the wide players seem to defend more narrow and a bit higher. That helps them press the opposition defence at times, but leaves Mitchell and Khalili exposed. They, perhaps as a result or by design, often defend ten yards further forward than the centre backs. Hence time and again we see either our wing backs scrambling to get back to stop a winger or, even worse, one of our centre backs coming across to the wide area, leaving less defenders and more space in the centre. Critically, it also means all of our defenders are getting moved about at the crucial moments, and are not set in position.

Even if Paddy is the 'defensive' coach, the fundamental structure is so off that his would be a thankless task.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

Khalaili might doing better than it seemed. Second in the PL for tackles made.

Premier League Top Player Stats - Top Goalscorers, Most Assists & Clean Sheets

View details of the top player stats for various metrics including goals, assists and expected goals, on the official website of the Premier League.

www.premierleague.com

 

[ASCPFC]

Khalaili might doing better than it seemed. Second in the PL for tackles made.

Premier League Top Player Stats - Top Goalscorers, Most Assists & Clean Sheets

View details of the top player stats for various metrics including goals, assists and expected goals, on the official website of the Premier League.

www.premierleague.com

Every attack is going down his channel alright. It's the obvious thing. Newcastle just did it. Think about Hall and Barnes constantly getting forward.

 

[doombear]

Every attack is going down his channel alright. It's the obvious thing. Newcastle just did it. Think about Hall and Barnes constantly getting forward.

Exactly! You're the manager of a team about to play Palace and you want to get the ball to your winger/attacking wide player to get crosses into the box. Palace's LWB is a certain Tyrick Mitchell, whose stats over a number of years now say he's one of the top defensive WBs/LBs in the PL. Palace's RWB is a newbie just come in from an inferior European League still getting to grips with the PL etc. Hmm? Who are you going to target? Of course Khalaili going to be asked to do a lot of tackling.

 

[OneStevePerrin]

This idea of having a 'defensive coach' is interesting.

Firstly, in our case, I find it hard to believe that Paddy is tasked with organising the defence as a discreet job. For one thing, he was on the staff under Glasner when we had a very different, far more defensively coherent, interpretation of the 343 system. If how we defended was up to him then why would it have changed so much from one manager to the next even though the system remains the same on paper?

More to the point, even if a particular coach or assistant is tasked with focusing on defending, he can only do so much if the possession/attacking sides of the game are not up to him. If the players are asked to get forward in a way that places half of them on the 'wrong' side of the ball when we lose it, then your job as a defensive coach is far harder. You are probably working more on high-risk moments and damage-limitation rather than actual coherent, reliable defensive structure.

Plus, most 'managers' are nothing of the sort nowadays. They don't handle contracts, sales, and signings, or set long term direction. They just work with the players they have. In other words, they are a head-coach. I find it hard to believe that the version of 343 we have seen so far is anything other than Sage's take on it. It is certainly his responsibility at least.

Under Glasner we defended in a deep 541 shape. Sarr and Eze/Pino would drop back to defend as part of a bank of 4 midfielders. Mateta would sit in front of the centre mids, so we had all 11 behind the ball with about 25/30 yards between the font player and the defenders. This reduced the distance the centre mids had to cover, and allowed Mitchell and Munoz to defend as fullbacks (i.e. to mark the opposition winger). That in turn allowed the three centre backs to play narrow, close to each other. That leaves far less space (in our half, anyway).

Under Sage the wide players seem to defend more narrow and a bit higher. That helps them press the opposition defence at times, but leaves Mitchell and Khalili exposed. They, perhaps as a result or by design, often defend ten yards further forward than the centre backs. Hence time and again we see either our wing backs scrambling to get back to stop a winger or, even worse, one of our centre backs coming across to the wide area, leaving less defenders and more space in the centre. Critically, it also means all of our defenders are getting moved about at the crucial moments, and are not set in position.

Even if Paddy is the 'defensive' coach, the fundamental structure is so off that his would be a thankless task.

The under Glasner and under Sage paragraphs sums up the problem 100%. Granted Glasner had a better first 11 but Sage has a bigger squad. If Sage used Glasners set up and the bigger squad including how he brings on substitutes earlier I see no reason why we can’t be harder to beat by being tighter all over the pitch. As was said by a previous manager “it’s not rocket science” 🙂

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

The under Glasner and under Sage paragraphs sums up the problem 100%. Granted Glasner had a better first 11 but Sage has a bigger squad. If Sage used Glasners set up and the bigger squad including how he brings on substitutes earlier I see no reason why we can’t be harder to beat by being tighter all over the pitch. As was said by a previous manager “it’s not rocket science” 🙂

"rocket science" does not account for human variables. It is a necessity to account for human variables for football management

 

[TheBigToePunt]

"rocket science" does not account for human variables. It is a necessity to account for human variables for football management

It very much is, but I would argue that if (to use one example of a human variable) a fairly inexperienced young lad has just signed from Belgian football and needs to feel his way in English football, he will be helped to settle and feel confident and valuable if he is part of a system in which he isn't exposed too much. If, on the other hand, he is left to fend for himself by the set up then his confidence will no doubt suffer. I think we've seen that.

 

[TheBigToePunt]

Exactly! You're the manager of a team about to play Palace and you want to get the ball to your winger/attacking wide player to get crosses into the box. Palace's LWB is a certain Tyrick Mitchell, whose stats over a number of years now say he's one of the top defensive WBs/LBs in the PL. Palace's RWB is a newbie just come in from an inferior European League still getting to grips with the PL etc. Hmm? Who are you going to target? Of course Khalaili going to be asked to do a lot of tackling.

Plus, who is he tackling?! Bless him, he's looked so at sixes and sevens over recent weeks as to appear on the verge of flying into Richards or Pino!

He provokes memories of my old youth team coach. I can still hear him calling out to me:

'Stand up, son! Slow Down! Don't dive in! He's not going anywhere!.... Oh s***.... OK, son, apologise to him. And to the ref. Now get yourself back in the box and try and defend the free kick..."

 

[PatrickA]

Shows the meaningless of stats when taken in isolation with regard to Khalaili and his tacking.
He could be top of the list for tackles , but to date he has frequently been found wanting in his defensive positioning, ability to stop crosses, his leaving of space and failure to track opponents.
In essence he is not doing a sound defensive job.
I'm not writing him off - I hope he improves- but I'm looking at his contribution to date.

 

[ASCPFC]

Shows the meaningless of stats when taken in isolation with regard to Khalaili and his tacking.
He could be top of the list for tackles , but to date he has frequently been found wanting in his defensive positioning, ability to stop crosses, his leaving of space and failure to track opponents.
In essence he is not doing a sound defensive job.
I'm not writing him off - I hope he improves- but I'm looking at his contribution to date.

Nobody would do any better in the way he's being asked to play. Munoz wouldn't for a start.

 

[PatrickA]

Nobody would do any better in the way he's being asked to play. Munoz wouldn't for a start.

I disagree.
Munoz won a double player of year award and was rarely found wanting defensively despite his attacking prowess.
I acknowledge, nonetheless, that it's difficult to make a fair assessment because Munoz played with some great defenders which Khalaili doesn't benefit from.
I'm going to the game tonight and think Mingueza will play so it would be interesting to see how he gets on.
Back to Khalaili, I wonder if he'd be better suited to a role further forward where he looks more comfortable.

 

[OneStevePerrin]

I disagree.
Munoz won a double player of year award and was rarely found wanting defensively despite his attacking prowess.
I acknowledge, nonetheless, that it's difficult to make a fair assessment because Munoz played with some great defenders which Khalaili doesn't benefit from.
I'm going to the game tonight and think Mingueza will play so it would be interesting to see how he gets on.
Back to Khalaili, I wonder if he'd be better suited to a role further forward where he looks more comfortable.

And I disagree with your assessment (sorry) The difference is that Glasners team was more defensive, especially the midfield two. This allowed Munoz to get forward as Khalaili does now. However, the whole team under Sage gets more forward leaving the back three in trouble when the press breaks down. If we set up as normal tonight Mingueza will also get caught out. Let’s just hope Fulham miss their chances as they did last time against us. Unless I’m completely wrong and we go more defensive tonight? One can dream 🙂

 

[PatrickA]

And I disagree with your assessment (sorry) The difference is that Glasners team was more defensive, especially the midfield two. This allowed Munoz to get forward as Khalaili does now. However, the whole team under Sage gets more forward leaving the back three in trouble when the press breaks down. If we set up as normal tonight Mingueza will also get caught out. Let’s just hope Fulham miss their chances as they did last time against us. Unless I’m completely wrong and we go more defensive tonight? One can dream 🙂

No need to apologise, and in fact I absolutely agree with your tactical assessment.

I suppose the point I was trying to make is that even when Khalaili has been in a deeper position he still hasn't convinced defensively by letting players go past him easily, by not stopping crosses and by not tracking opponents.
I mention Mingueza not because I necessarily think he will do any better , but because tonight will be my first opportunity to see him live.

If the whole squad was fit and we really wanted to seal up the right flank defensively my choice would be Tomiyasu.
He excelled in the position at Arsenal and with him , and a more defensive Mitchell on the other side, I'm sure we would not be conceding in the same way.