Sage in or out

Sage in or out

  • In

    Votes: 91 38.4%
  • Out

    Votes: 111 46.8%
  • Sit on the fence

    Votes: 35 14.8%

  • Total voters
    237
Looking at getting some of these maybe 10k to start with to sell outside selhurst so fans get nice and comfortable. So people can have good sleep while his in charge during game
I’d take a good sleep over a waking nightmare which is what we are seeing right now.

Can we also not pretend we are seeing attractive attacking football? Only the three promoted clubs have a lower percentage of possession than us in the division. We’ve scored 9 goals which puts us on pace for around last season’s mighty total of 41 league goals. We have failed to score in 50% of our games. Our football is plenty difficult enough to watch as it is.
 
I'm not sure there is too much 'fault' to go round here, necessarily.

We know that we only get our hands on the better young players on the basis they will be sold upwards if they do well. Nobody at Palace is responsible for the state of football, they just have to play along. We were always going to come to an end of the positive cycle, and it was always going to be hard to repeat that level of luck/success with new signings. There is no failure in Palace not being able to keep the FA Cup team together, or replace them like for like.

The signings of Johnson and Larsen have been catastrophes, but to be fair, not many of us were moaning about Johnson or his price when we got him, and a good many of us wanted the club to reinvest the profits from big sales into established senior players rather than young hopefuls. To pay the market rate. To not be tight. To support Glasner in his attempts to win in Europe. That's what they tried to do. It failed, but it wasn't mental.

We don't know why La Croix and Munoz were sold, but we do know that UEFA FFP is very tight, that we qualified for Europe again (which was not to be presumed at the point of earlier financial planning) and that someone like Parish isn't going to weaken the team through choice or carelessness. There will be a reason for those sales. Whether another approach could have been taken instead or not, again, it wasn't mental.

In terms of replacements, I was one of those summer moaners complaining that the squad looked deeper but the team looked weaker. That seems to have been proven true (to date, at least). Still, it seems essential for Palace to buy young hopefuls like Gozo, Osario, Khalili and so on (none of whom obviously strengthen the team here and now) if we hope to have any transfer budget in coming windows. We can't stop the process of buying young hopefuls just because the last batch flopped. If anything, it makes it more essential. Personally, I would have focused that money on a couple more senior pros with less sell-on value, but I do understand why Palace do it the way they do.

We didn’t get good enough established senior players in the summer, especially at the back, but we don’t know who was actually available, whether they would actually join us, or whether we could afford them. It is possible that it all makes perfect sense if you know the details, which we don’t.

Finally, I doubt Sage was appointed just because he plays a 343. Let's not forget, he was coach of the year in France and took Lens to second place. Personally, I don't think you needed a crystal ball to question whether, given his lack of experience and apparent tactical approach, he was the right man for us at the time, but we had just won three trophies in a year and were going into the Europa League for the first time. I could understand it if Parish wanted a positive appointment to keep momentum going. At the time, we would all have cried and wailed if he'd gone with a safe pair of hands instead.

They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I think, at least, the road to being in a pickle is often paved with decisions that only seem wrong in hindsight, but were reasonable enough at the time. None of that matters now. What matters is whether the current arrangement is likely to work given reasonable time and support and, if not, how most effectively and efficiently to change it.

We all know that only means one thing, and it's not about whether it’s fair on Sage.
It's human nature to examine and question what's going wrong when things are indeed going wrong.

As Palace fans I think it's fair to say that we accept Parish's statement that we are not a '' destination club '' for top players. And the way that the Premier League is constructed, we are never likely to be. I certainly had no expectations of keeping the FA Cup winning team together, and of course our captain then, Marc Guehi , was totally transparent as to his intentions.

As you say, success comes in cycles. It's how you prepare for the next phase then that becomes important. And that's where - from the outside looking in - I think the club could have done better. Yes I know that tighter financial regulation is a major consideration. And I know that one thing that Steve Parish is bang on the ball with is staying within those financial thresholds.

My issue is with the timing of some of those transactions. We had the Guehi situation ( which I don't propose to debate again ), and this summer it was the sudden sale of Lacroix. Without an adequate / suitable replacement. So we went into the season relying on an injury prone Riad and a veteran Lerma until we signed Disasi - who has so far been quite underwhelming. I keep telling myself that £20m for Dani Munoz was good financial business, but not so from a footballing perspective.

Without the benefit of ' inside ' information, us fans have to rely on what's being reported in the media to get a clue as to what's going on within the club. And then you have to filter out the likes of the nonsense peddled by the likes of Football Insider etc. So - and yes, it's Bobby Manzi reporting it - I read that Sage was appointed not only on the back of his achievements in French football but also because he played a similar style of football to Glasner. Understandable then that Parish liked what he saw in Sage, but I don't think our transfer dealings have helped him.

So going to where we are now I think we can look at things through two different lens. ( pardon the pun ).

1. We need to give Sage more time. Pre season was the usual International Tournament SNAFU. Added to which we signed a batch of players that needed to be integrated. With the demands of European games and then International Breaks, Sage has had little time to coach the squad between fixtures.

or

2. Sage's style is unsustainable. What worked in France has been exposed as not good enough for Premier League success. Because of those European games and International Breaks, he's not going to get that time he needs to effectively drill the players. As I posted earlier, having seen all the games so far this season, I'm not seeing an incremental improvement. And I don't see how Sage is going to be able to fix it.

Reluctantly then, I fall into option 2.
 
I really want him to turn this around. Sort the defence and start to move forward again. I dont think he's had good enough support from the board (there may be reasons for that which we do not know, for a start I know the club had deals in place to sign not one but two quality centre halves. Both deals broke down) but I dont think Sage is helping himself here.
There are things that can be done to help shore up the leaking goals. If your defence is crap you can put a couple of strong defencive midfielders in front of them to share the workload. For me if Doucoure is fit enough to be on the bench he is fit enough to play. Same goes for Hughes. Lerma can play there. Timber does a good job there when he's fit. Then theres the Kalaili issue. I like him but he is definitely more focussed on getting forward than defending. I'd swap him for the more defensive minded Mingueza for a while.
Plus Wally has made some great saves as our no.2 but he has also dropped a few clangers too. We need Hendo back asap.
If it were up to me I actually would give him another 2 or 3 games but if I were Parish I'd be telling Sage we MUST start to see some improvement particularly in defence. Sage's Lille had the second best defence in the French League last season so we know he knows how to set up a backline (unlike say a Holloway or a De Boer). Its time for him to start showing his coaching capabilities or reluctantly it has to be thanks but goodbye.
 
I’d take a good sleep over a waking nightmare which is what we are seeing right now.

Can we also not pretend we are seeing attractive attacking football? Only the three promoted clubs have a lower percentage of possession than us in the division. We’ve scored 9 goals which puts us on pace for around last season’s mighty total of 41 league goals. We have failed to score in 50% of our games. Our football is plenty difficult enough to watch as it is.
You must have been through worse than at the moment . I know I have lol. sure we haven't won in 10 and drew 4 them not that long ago
 
I'm not sure there is too much 'fault' to go round here, necessarily.

We know that we only get our hands on the better young players on the basis they will be sold upwards if they do well. Nobody at Palace is responsible for the state of football, they just have to play along. We were always going to come to an end of the positive cycle, and it was always going to be hard to repeat that level of luck/success with new signings. There is no failure in Palace not being able to keep the FA Cup team together, or replace them like for like.

The signings of Johnson and Larsen have been catastrophes, but to be fair, not many of us were moaning about Johnson or his price when we got him, and a good many of us wanted the club to reinvest the profits from big sales into established senior players rather than young hopefuls. To pay the market rate. To not be tight. To support Glasner in his attempts to win in Europe. That's what they tried to do. It failed, but it wasn't mental.

We don't know why La Croix and Munoz were sold, but we do know that UEFA FFP is very tight, that we qualified for Europe again (which was not to be presumed at the point of earlier financial planning) and that someone like Parish isn't going to weaken the team through choice or carelessness. There will be a reason for those sales. Whether another approach could have been taken instead or not, again, it wasn't mental.

In terms of replacements, I was one of those summer moaners complaining that the squad looked deeper but the team looked weaker. That seems to have been proven true (to date, at least). Still, it seems essential for Palace to buy young hopefuls like Gozo, Osario, Khalili and so on (none of whom obviously strengthen the team here and now) if we hope to have any transfer budget in coming windows. We can't stop the process of buying young hopefuls just because the last batch flopped. If anything, it makes it more essential. Personally, I would have focused that money on a couple more senior pros with less sell-on value, but I do understand why Palace do it the way they do.

We didn’t get good enough established senior players in the summer, especially at the back, but we don’t know who was actually available, whether they would actually join us, or whether we could afford them. It is possible that it all makes perfect sense if you know the details, which we don’t.

Finally, I doubt Sage was appointed just because he plays a 343. Let's not forget, he was coach of the year in France and took Lens to second place. Personally, I don't think you needed a crystal ball to question whether, given his lack of experience and apparent tactical approach, he was the right man for us at the time, but we had just won three trophies in a year and were going into the Europa League for the first time. I could understand it if Parish wanted a positive appointment to keep momentum going. At the time, we would all have cried and wailed if he'd gone with a safe pair of hands instead.

They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I think, at least, the road to being in a pickle is often paved with decisions that only seem wrong in hindsight, but were reasonable enough at the time. None of that matters now. What matters is whether the current arrangement is likely to work given reasonable time and support and, if not, how most effectively and efficiently to change it.

We all know that only means one thing, and it's not about whether it’s fair on Sage.
Very good summary. I already made my point about the impossibilty of our much loved club ever being able to achieve consistant success (see "Time") because we simply do not have the financial structure, Stadium, capacity, fan-base etc. Like him of not, I also think it is so naive to suggest that Parish deliberately weakened the team/squad by voluntarily selling senior experienced defenders. We don't know the reasons but i would lay a good bet on the UEFA financial rules that are more stringent than the EPL. Thus another reason why success for us means we are more financially disadvantaged than those without success. Peverse but true! Hindsight is wonderful thing. There was no overwhelming majority on these boards moaning about Johnson; say maybe it was a 50/50. As for JSL, well it was odds-on that JP was leaving and things were kind of desperate, and that was the price. I still hang to the hope that he'll be ok, even if that seems unlikely, because he does get into decent positions. I bet he's had more efforts on target and been thwarted by saves than JP but somebody else can analyse that one.
I looked for all the world that we would get at least one if not two experienced and alledgedly good CB's but, well the price kept increasing for one and the other didn't want to come, apparently. Maybe this is where Parish could have dug deeper but he did that with JSL and well, look at that turned out for now.
So, no, it isn't fair on Sage but fair is not relevant. He doesn't seem to be helping himself and he is certainly not helped by individuals making schoolboy errors.
I am slowly starting to move towards the "out" choice, if indeed there is actually a choice. I mean, just look at the so-called list. The names have all had success and all been sacked. So, is anything a good choice? More like lucky-dip.
 
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This was a bad day, nothing compares to that dire crap...even the 9-0 was more fun....dont know how its the managers coaching that has our stupid centre backs letting osula to run between them and score? what does annoy me is we have a lump of a forward in JSL cross the poxy ball to him.
 
Good post. Pretty much where I am.

I really want him to turn this around. Sort the defence and start to move forward again. I dont think he's had good enough support from the board (there may be reasons for that which we do not know, for a start I know the club had deals in place to sign not one but two quality centre halves. Both deals broke down) but I dont think Sage is helping himself here.
There are things that can be done to help shore up the leaking goals. If your defence is crap you can put a couple of strong defencive midfielders in front of them to share the workload. For me if Doucoure is fit enough to be on the bench he is fit enough to play. Same goes for Hughes. Lerma can play there. Timber does a good job there when he's fit. Then theres the Kalaili issue. I like him but he is definitely more focussed on getting forward than defending. I'd swap him for the more defensive minded Mingueza for a while.
Plus Wally has made some great saves as our no.2 but he has also dropped a few clangers too. We need Hendo back asap.
If it were up to me I actually would give him another 2 or 3 games but if I were Parish I'd be telling Sage we MUST start to see some improvement particularly in defence. Sage's Lille had the second best defence in the French League last season so we know he knows how to set up a backline (unlike say a Holloway or a De Boer). Its time for him to start showing his coaching capabilities or reluctantly it has to be thanks but goodbye.
 
I’m not in the sack him now camp.
I would give him 5 more games and 2 wins and a draw from them.
Lots of the best managers ( I’m not saying sage is) were a game or two off the sack. He’s had is it 11 games and averaged a point a game. Inc cup
Many would say that’s average for a team our size. I was here with many of you in the 80s and 90s so been there done that.
A new manager and players and it still may just be our time I’m afraid!
Vent yes but remember we did the dream we never ever expected COYP.
 
It's human nature to examine and question what's going wrong when things are indeed going wrong.

As Palace fans I think it's fair to say that we accept Parish's statement that we are not a '' destination club '' for top players. And the way that the Premier League is constructed, we are never likely to be. I certainly had no expectations of keeping the FA Cup winning team together, and of course our captain then, Marc Guehi , was totally transparent as to his intentions.

As you say, success comes in cycles. It's how you prepare for the next phase then that becomes important. And that's where - from the outside looking in - I think the club could have done better. Yes I know that tighter financial regulation is a major consideration. And I know that one thing that Steve Parish is bang on the ball with is staying within those financial thresholds.

My issue is with the timing of some of those transactions. We had the Guehi situation ( which I don't propose to debate again ), and this summer it was the sudden sale of Lacroix. Without an adequate / suitable replacement. So we went into the season relying on an injury prone Riad and a veteran Lerma until we signed Disasi - who has so far been quite underwhelming. I keep telling myself that £20m for Dani Munoz was good financial business, but not so from a footballing perspective.

Without the benefit of ' inside ' information, us fans have to rely on what's being reported in the media to get a clue as to what's going on within the club. And then you have to filter out the likes of the nonsense peddled by the likes of Football Insider etc. So - and yes, it's Bobby Manzi reporting it - I read that Sage was appointed not only on the back of his achievements in French football but also because he played a similar style of football to Glasner. Understandable then that Parish liked what he saw in Sage, but I don't think our transfer dealings have helped him.

So going to where we are now I think we can look at things through two different lens. ( pardon the pun ).

1. We need to give Sage more time. Pre season was the usual International Tournament SNAFU. Added to which we signed a batch of players that needed to be integrated. With the demands of European games and then International Breaks, Sage has had little time to coach the squad between fixtures.

or

2. Sage's style is unsustainable. What worked in France has been exposed as not good enough for Premier League success. Because of those European games and International Breaks, he's not going to get that time he needs to effectively drill the players. As I posted earlier, having seen all the games so far this season, I'm not seeing an incremental improvement. And I don't see how Sage is going to be able to fix it.

Reluctantly then, I fall into option 2.

Whilst there might not be incremental, or even linear improvement. There has been some improvement, and some stuff that is good/promising

Tightening up - he's shown that he can do that. Leeds, first half on Sunday etc. Granted, its not much but it can be done. Take Sunday, I'm not sure if he changed things at HT, or the players just came out slow.

Fight - Because we've let in so many silly and early goals we've had to fight hard. Often the damage is done but they are not giving up.

Attacking - they have proved that a team that couldn't score for toffee last season, can. Pino and Kamada both looking dangerous offensively.

I'm deffo in the keep him for a few more games camp. We are not completely broken, the team still seam to be grafting for him, and with Hendo, Sarr, JP and Disasi's red we've been missing a few key players. I've got no doubt Hedo would have saved a few of the goals let in on Benitez's watch
 
Whilst there might not be incremental, or even linear improvement. There has been some improvement, and some stuff that is good/promising

Tightening up - he's shown that he can do that. Leeds, first half on Sunday etc. Granted, its not much but it can be done. Take Sunday, I'm not sure if he changed things at HT, or the players just came out slow.

Fight - Because we've let in so many silly and early goals we've had to fight hard. Often the damage is done but they are not giving up.

Attacking - they have proved that a team that couldn't score for toffee last season, can. Pino and Kamada both looking dangerous offensively.

I'm deffo in the keep him for a few more games camp. We are not completely broken, the team still seam to be grafting for him, and with Hendo, Sarr, JP and Disasi's red we've been missing a few key players. I've got no doubt Hedo would have saved a few of the goals let in on Benitez's watch
I would sum up our performances this season like this ; with the ball - good ; without the ball - bad !
 
These are the stark facts and it certainly doesn't make pleasant reading.
We are certainly in 'Pitchy seas' at present with Tottenham and Liverpool to follow in the League.
I am reminded of the words of an insightful chap on the eve of the opening game :
"Buckle up it is going to be a bumpy ride". Perhaps the 'Turbulence' is greater than he anticipated.
 
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I’m not in the sack him now camp.
I would give him 5 more games and 2 wins and a draw from them.
Lots of the best managers ( I’m not saying sage is) were a game or two off the sack. He’s had is it 11 games and averaged a point a game. Inc cup
Many would say that’s average for a team our size. I was here with many of you in the 80s and 90s so been there done that.
A new manager and players and it still may just be our time I’m afraid!
Vent yes but remember we did the dream we never ever expected COYP.
Utter madness, we will be adrift at the bottom, procrastination is the last thing we need, or Parish (who i like) doing his Nero impression.
 
Utter madness, we will be adrift at the bottom, procrastination is the last thing we need, or Parish (who i like) doing his Nero impression.
You have 'Nailed your colours to the mast' on this issue.
The overall view of those with whom I had communication last night was that a change needed to be made sooner than later.
 
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Whilst there might not be incremental, or even linear improvement. There has been some improvement, and some stuff that is good/promising

Tightening up - he's shown that he can do that. Leeds, first half on Sunday etc. Granted, its not much but it can be done. Take Sunday, I'm not sure if he changed things at HT, or the players just came out slow.

Fight - Because we've let in so many silly and early goals we've had to fight hard. Often the damage is done but they are not giving up.

Attacking - they have proved that a team that couldn't score for toffee last season, can. Pino and Kamada both looking dangerous offensively.

I'm deffo in the keep him for a few more games camp. We are not completely broken, the team still seam to be grafting for him, and with Hendo, Sarr, JP and Disasi's red we've been missing a few key players. I've got no doubt Hedo would have saved a few of the goals let in on Benitez's watch
The fact we can tighten up but Sage won’t isn’t a positive. It’s quite a damning indictment of him because it suggests he is choosing to play this way. That’s just terrible decision making. Look at Sunday. First half was ok. Second half we notably changed tactics to again push the fullbacks and midfield up. I suspect Sage had told them to get up the pitch and try and win the ball higher. I simply don’t believe the players just randomly decided to do it.

As for the goals thing this has been debunked numerous times on here. We’ve scored 9 in 8 in the league and failed to score in 50% of our games. Puts us on track for about last season’s total of goals and that was a team that “couldn’t score for toffee”.

The most worrying thing for me is we are getting worse as a team, not better, as time goes on. I really can’t identify any pattern of play we are embedding. Under Sage we are just bad at everything.
 
Utter madness, we will be adrift at the bottom, procrastination is the last thing we need, or Parish (who i like) doing his Nero impression.
There is no point in sacking him, until a replacement is lined up, which I am sure is being sought now. The alternative of having the defence coach McCarthy in charge as temporary manager is a frightening thought.
 

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